The No Goofy Zone Discernment Ministry

The Signs and Wonders Movement Hit The Nazarene Denomination Part Two

2011-08-08T16:20:00.004-04:00

The Signs And Wonders Movement Hit The Nazarene Denomination Part Two

There is no fresher or more intimate revelation than Scripture. God doesn’t need to give us private revelation to help us in our walk with Him. “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16 – 17; emphasis added). Scripture is sufficient. It offers all we need for every good work.

Christians on both sides of the charismatic fence must realize a vital truth:God’s revelation is complete for now. The canon of Scripture is closed. As the apostle John penned the final words of the last book of the New Testament, he recorded this warning: “I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and from the holy city, which are written in this book” (Rev. 22:18-19). Then, the Holy Spirit added a doxology and closed the canon.

When the canon closed on the Old Testament after the time of Ezra and Nehemiah, there followed four hundred “silent years” when no prophet spoke God’s revelation in any form.

That silence was broken by John the Baptist as God spoke once more prior to the New Testament age. God then moved various men to record the books of the New Testament, and the last of these was Revelation. By the second century A.D., the complete canon exactly as we have it today was popularly recognized. Church councils in the fourth century verified and made official what the church has universally affirmed, that the sixty-six books in our Bibles are the only true Scripture inspired by God. The canon is complete.

John MacArthur

This article is going to be less about Dan Bohi and more on the problems of extra biblical revelation.

In another of Dan’s speech’s from Crossroads Tabernacle July 5 2010 at around 46:47 Dan states when talking about Exodus chapter 14 “This is what I think happened.” Then he goes way off the map and starts talking about this little chubby boy who probably carried loaves and fishes and then the kid yells out “Mom lets get wet”. Dan then goes off on another bunny trail and talks about faith and how a little child shall lead them and that you need water to be born again and then millions follow into the water.

Interesting story but that was not at all what happened in the scriptures in Exodus 14. The real scary thing was that around 48:06 someone in the crowd goes “Wow” as Dan tells this story.

Dan also compares the pillar of fire and pillar of cloud to the Holy Spirit.

Scripture however proclaims this to be an angel of the Lord.

Now Dan has been proclaimed by some as being a prophet of God.

And it is also advertised that Dan reads through his Bible once every 30 days.

Hmmn

Also a thing about the Word Faith/Signs and Wonders crowd. Notice they have to dig into the Old Testament to help proof text what they say because even though there were signs and wonders that accompanied the sharing of the gospel. But to say it was the norm for the early church I believe is error and we need to keep in mind what scripture states about the end times.

You know I never hear John MacArthur or Justin Peters proclaim how often they read the scripture’s. I know they encourage everyone to read the scriptures for themselves though. But do you know how I can tell that both John and Justin read their Bibles?

They rightly divide the Word of God.

Teachers that proof text, go off on stories and bunny trails are more often than not just trying to wrap scripture around something that they have thought up instead of rightly dividing the Word of God.

These kind of teachers should be avoided.

So again the question is does God still speak to us?

And again I would say to you of course God does but through his Word.

When we are praying for a new job of course its great to ask God for a job because we know Gods Word says we should work

2 Thessalonians 3:10

New King James Version (NKJV)

10 For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.

We should seek Gods will in everything we do but why do we make it so complicated?

We also know-

Proverbs 3:5-6

New King James Version (NKJV)

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,And He shall direct your paths.

Its all a matter of trust.

I know people with very good hearts really want to do Gods perfect will and honor Him with their lives.

I think this is a worthy endeavor for sure but should we be listening to voices in our heads or voices in someone elses head?

Some would set themselves up as spiritually elite and they have just a little more Holy Spirit than the rest. This is to have power (not ordained by God) over other people.

So again should we be listening to voices in our heads?

John MacArthur states..

The charismatic movement began barely a hundred years ago, but its influence on evangelicalism can hardly be overstated. Its chief legacy has been an unprecedented interest in extrabiblical revelation. Millions influenced by charismatic doctrine are convinced that God speaks to them directly. “The Lord told me …” has become the favorite cliché among these Christians.

Not all who believe that God speaks to them make prophetic pronouncements as outlandish as those broadcast by charismatic televangelists, of course. But they still believe God gives them extrabiblical messages—either through an audible voice, a vision, a voice in their heads, or simply an internal impression. In most cases, their “prophecies” are comparatively trivial. But the difference between them and Hinn’s predictions is merely one of scale, not of substance.

Similar ideas have found sweeping acceptance even among noncharismatic Christians. Evangelicals have eagerly devoured Experiencing God, by Henry Blackaby and Claude King, which suggests that the main way the Holy Spirit leads believers is by speaking to them directly.According to Blackaby, when God gives an individual a message that pertains to the church, it should be shared with the whole body. As a result, extrabiblical “words from the Lord” are now commonplace even among noncharismatic evangelicals.

That is precisely why modern evangelicalism’s infatuation with extrabiblical revelation is so dangerous. It is a return to medieval superstition and a departure from our fundamental conviction that the Bible is our sole, supreme, and sufficient authority for all of life. In other words, it represents a wholesale abandonment of the principle of sola Scriptura. Historic Protestantism is grounded in the conviction that the canon is closed. No “new” revelation is necessary because Scripture is complete and absolutely sufficient.

Scripture itself is clear that the day of God’s speaking directly to his people through various prophetic words and visions is past. The truth God has revealed in Christ—including the complete New Testament canon—is his final word (Heb. 1:1-2; cf. Jude 3; Rev. 22:18-19).

Scripture—the written Word of God—is perfectly sufficient, containing all the revelation we need. Paul tells Timothy: “From infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:15-17).

That passage makes two very important statements. First, “all Scripture is God-breathed.” Scripture speaks with the authority of God himself! It is certain, reliable, and true. Jesus himself prayed in John 17:17, “Your word is truth.” Psalm 119:160 says, “All your words are true.” These statements set Scripture above every human opinion, every speculation, and every emotional sensation. Scripture alone stands as definitive truth. It speaks with an authority that transcends every other voice.

Second, the passage teaches that Scripture is utterly sufficient, “able to make you wise for salvation” and able to make you “thoroughly equipped for every good work.” What clearer affirmation of the absolute sufficiency of Scripture could anyone ask for? Those who seek fresh messages from God have, in effect, scorned the absolute certainty and absolute sufficiency of the written Word of God. And they have set in its place their own fallen and fallible imaginations.

Does this mean God has stopped speaking? Certainly not, but he speaks today through his Word. Does the Spirit of God move our hearts and impress us with specific duties or callings? Certainly, but he works through the Word of God to do that. Such experiences are in no sense prophetic or authoritative. They are not revelation, but the effect of illumination, when the Holy Spirit applies the Word of God to our hearts and opens our spiritual eyes to its truth.

We must guard carefully against allowing our experience and our own subjective thoughts and imaginations to eclipse the authority and the certainty of the more sure Word.

The signs and wonders camp as well as the Emergent church camp also buy into visualization or imaginative prayer.

Richard Foster recommends visualizing prayer in his popular book Celebration of Discipline:

“Imagination opens the door to faith. If we can ‘see’ in our mind’s eye a shattered marriage whole or a sick person well, it is only a short step to believing that it will be so. … I was once called to a home to pray for a seriously ill baby girl. Her four-year-old brother was in the room and so I told him I needed his help to pray for his baby sister. … He climbed up into the chair beside me. ‘Let’s play a little game,’ I said. ‘Since we know that Jesus is always with us, let’s imagine that He is sitting over in the chair across from us. He is waiting patiently for us to center our attention on Him. When we see Him, we start thinking more about His love than how sick Julie is. He smiles, gets up, and comes over to us. Then let’s both put our hands on Julie and when we do, Jesus will put His hands on top of ours. We’ll watch and imagine that the light from Jesus is flowing right into your little sister and making her well. Let’s pretend that the light of Christ fights with the bad germs until they are all gone. Okay!’ Seriously the little one nodded. Together we prayed in this childlike way and then thanked the Lord that what we ‘saw’ was the way it was going to be” (Celebration of Discipline, 1978, p. 37).

This is not biblical prayer; it is occultism.

Davis Cloud writes and warns..

Visualization prayer is not faith. Faith is not based on imagination; it is based on Scripture. “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17). God has given us everything we need in Scripture and our part is to believe what God says. “But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name” (John 20:31). We have everything we need to know about Christ for the present in the Scripture, and we accept it by faith. “Whom HAVING NOT SEEN, ye love; in whom, THOUGH NOW YE SEE HIM NOT, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory” (1 Peter 1:8).

visualization prayer is presumptuous because it goes beyond divine Revelation. Deuteronomy 29:29 says, “The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.” By going beyond what the Bible says and trying to delve into Bible history through the imagination, I am leaving the revealed things and entering the secret things.

Fifth, visualization prayer is dangerous. It is dangerous because it adds to Scripture. If I get in the habit of visualizing Bible scenes, I can easily think that my visualizations are authoritative. I can fall into Rome’s error of accepting extra-biblical revelations. It is also dangerous because demonic entities can involve themselves in my vain imaginings.

Consider an example given by emerging church leader Tony Jones in his book The Sacred Way. His friend Mike King made John 1:37-39 the focus of contemplative practices at a spiritual retreat. While practicing the Ignatian exercise of imaginative prayer he put himself into the biblical scene. He imagined himself sitting around John’s breakfast fire with the disciples, listening as they carried on an imaginative conversation. He imagined seeing Jesus approach and embrace John. He imagined hearing them tell stores of their childhood. He imagined them laughing. Then he imagined Jesus getting up and leaving, with John’s two disciples following. He imagined them walking into the desert and coming to a clearing, when suddenly the imagined Jesus turned around began interacting with him.

“When Jesus turned around, the two disciples of John whom I was following parted like the Red Sea and Jesus came right up to me, face to face. Jesus looked past my eyes into my heart and soul: ‘Mike, what do you want?’ I fell at the feet of Jesus and wept, pouring my heart out” (The Sacred Way, p. 79).

Notice that the imaginative prayer practitioner feels at liberty to go far beyond the words of Scripture to fantasize about the passage, creating purely fictional scenes. And observe that the Jesus that he imagines (which is certainly not the Jesus of the Bible because we do not know what that Jesus looks like and nowhere are we instructed to imagine seeing him) takes on a life of its own and interacts with him. This is either pure fiction and therefore absolutely meaningless, or it is a demonic visitation akin to a vision of Mary.

King says that he was powerfully affected by this imagined event. “That day changed me profoundly and is something I will have for the rest of my life, for Jesus said, ‘Come, and you will see…”

He thus pretends that Jesus actually said this directly to him, when in fact he only imagined it in a purely fictitious sense.

So be careful of the signs and wonders movement.

Here is what scripture states about those who seek after signs and wonders.

If any man shall say to you, “Lo, here is Christ,” or, “There!,” believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. (Matt. 24:23-25)

Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, “Master, we would see a sign from thee.” But He answered and said unto them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. But there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah.” (Matt. 12:38-39)

I would like to end this article with some wise words and words of caution from my brother in the Lord and dear friend Mike Oppenheimer.

Paul who was the apostle in which many of the signs and wonders were done through had a very different view than those today. He warns in the last days that the Church in the last days will be removed from the faith, a departure from the word. Over and over Paul teaches about adhering to doctrine and faith in Christ with no mention of signs and wonders. Even in his epistle to Timothy he tells him to stir up the gift within but he does not say anything about miracles but do the work of an evangelist. Today experience is knowledge or what is falsely called knowledge. This is how one gets their input, by a sign and a miracle they have experienced. Faith is trusting what you cannot see, if you can see it its not faith. You don’t get credited for something you can see but what you cannot.

Experiences that we see today are from the outside, the scripture says he has deposited in us the divine nature, he works in us from the inside. This is a completely different way of operation. The miracles in the bible through the apostles hands almost unanimously were to those who did not believe. If you had a miracle happen in your life praise the Lord, lets just be careful in our confidence to think any or every miracle is from God or genuine.

If you are strong in faith you don’t need signs and wonders to know that the Father cares for you. You don’t need to be further convinced of God by the exhibiting of power. We don’t need signs and wonders to prove that He exists or that He hears our prayers. Faith comes by hearing the word about Christ (Romans 10:17) we believe what we read. Without seeing any evidence of supernatural manifestations, we can believe because God has granted us grace to believe based upon the testimony of His Word. Faith is to work from his word. The Lord requires faith, however we are more blessed who believe without seeing (John 20:29). Faith is the foundation upon which rests every thing we receive in our spiritual life. Without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6). But its not presumption nor is it imaginative.

If we look at the people who have had supernatural experiences, we’ll find that, in many cases, when the signs and wonders cease, their faith ceases. It was not true faith, but rather mere belief in what they could deny seeing. They believed because they saw, but they did not have true faith, it was temporary.

The Signs And Wonders Movement Hit The Nazarene Denomination

2011-08-03T13:06:00.000-04:00

I had started out with this as a review of Dan Bohi’s preaching but I want to get more into the signs and wonders movement (which in my opinion Dan is part of) and what the scriptures teach us about signs and wonders and how God speaks to us today.

D Martin Lloyd-Jones states

“Let us imagine I follow the mystic way. I begin to have experiences; I think God is speaking to me; how do I know it is God who is speaking to me? How can I know I am not speaking to man; how can I be sure that I am not the victim of hallucinations, since this has happened to many mystics? If I believe in mysticism as such without the Bible how do I know I am not being deluded bu satan as an angel of light in order to keep me from the living and true God? I have no standard..The evangelical doctrine tells me not to look into myself ,but to to look into the Word of God; not to examine myself, but to look at the revelation that has been given to me. It tells me that God can only be known in His own way, the way the way which has been revealed in the scriptures himself.

But Dan says in the M11 conference around 10:31″I believe its not going to come with better preaching.” Then he goes on to say “How many sermons do we have to hear?

Dan speaking about the anointing coming back (I didnt know it had left and Im sure it hasnt with good godly preachers who rightly divide the Word of God).

Dan goes on to say at around 11:31 “I dont think the preachers have to preach that good. ” “I dont think they have to plan so hard.” “I think they just need to flow in the spirit”

Dan then talks about releasing the prophetic at around 12 he states “Theres a power in His Word” “And I’m not talking about quoting verse’s and chapter.” Im not talking about having a good sermon”.

I want everyone though to listen to Dans speech themselves just google Dan Bohi and M11.

I found two statements (among others) very disturbing.

At around 21:30 Dan talking about Jesus in the desert “The third time He didn’t say its written He states “It says”. “I think when the word and the spirit come together it no longer remains logos it becomes rehema,it becomes revelation. And see without revelation we perish.

In my opinion Dan does not do a good job in rightly dividing the Word of God here. Yes Jesus did say “It is said” but my Lord was referring to Deut 6:16 where it was written. Dan goes the route many other Word Faith teachers go and try to compare this to rehema which means something different to the Word Faith folk even though logos and rehema are used interchangeably in the New Testament. Word Faith folk tend to turn this into a power struggle stating you can’t have power without the rehema.

Just one example here about what Im talking about. In 1 Peter 1:23-25, Peter describes how we are born again by the word of God. In verse 23, when he saying that the Word of God (by which we are born again) is incorruptible, Peter uses the Greek word “logos” for the “word” of God. In verse 25, after contrasting the Word’s incorruptibleness with the corruption of the world, Peter restates that the Word (by which the gospel is preached to us) endures forever. This phrase “endures forever” is simply a rephrasing of the description “incorruptible,” only in this verse, Peter uses the phrase, “the word of the Lord” to refer to the “word of God” in verse 23. But, this time Peter switches and uses the Greek word “rhema” for the “word” of the Lord. This is yet another occurrence where we see “rhema” and “logos” being so indistinguishable that they are used interchangeably.

The fact that “rhema” and “logos” are used interchangeably by New Testament authors is yet another demonstration that there is not enough distinction in the Bible between the two words to substantiate the Word Faith doctrine in which “rhema” words and “logos” words are two different categories.

Again its all about power with these folks. And I tend to see it with this camp as mans power not God’s. Gods Written Word does have power the Word Faith movement has tried to blur the lines here and turn it into something its not.

Then in 25:10-25:41 Dan compares what he was doing to what Benny Hinn does. Go listen for yourselves. Now I want to say that Dan does not mention Benny by his last name. But I dont know any other Benny who does what Dan was speaking about.

Again in my opinion I believe this is textbook Ken Hagin/Benny Hinn/Word Faith false teaching. But you need to go listen to Dan and decide for yourselves.

Now does God really speak to us like that? At specific times in the day (people love to quote exact times I believe because it empowers them as spiritually superior).

From Gary Gilleys book “Is That You Lord”?

“How does one know that he is hearing the voice of the Lord in the first place? Is it possible that the voice many believe they are hearing is the voice of their own thoughts,imaginations,desires, or something more insidous?”

“Many Christians now rely on far more inward promptings than on their Bible knowledge to decide what to do in a situation.”

“The final court of appeals determining the identity of the voice of God, if it is such, must be the direct instructions or at least the examples found in Scripture. The Scriptures claim to be the Word of God (2 Tim 3:16,17; 2 Peter 1:20,21) . They are inspired once for all, by the Holy Spirit, enabling prophets and apostles, using their own personalities to write Gods Word as He intended (Heb 1:1,2; 2:3,4; Acts 5:12, 2 Cor 12:12:. I believe with the closure of scripture , direct, infallible,authoritative revelation from God has ceased for this age. (ReV 22:18,19;Eph 2:20;3:5;Jude 3,4,;2 Peter 3:2).

It is instructive to note that paul wrote his last epistle tp pastor/friend Timothy about leading the church of God, he did not encourage Timothy to focus on new revelations, impressions, feelings or hunches. Rather he continually turned him to the Word of God and the doctrines contained therin (2 Timothy 2:2-14,15; 3:15-17; 4:2-4)

Donald S Whitney states

“The evangelistic method of Jesus and the apostles was not to urge people to seek direct experiences with God; instead they went about preaching and teaching the Scriptures (see Mark 1:14-15)

The bigger problem I see with Dan as well as the Nazarene denomination is that this is just more experience based Christianity wrapped up in a different package than what the Emergent Church is selling. Its no wonder the emergent Nazarenes don’t seem to have a big problem with Dan.

Again its the same old stuff I saw in the Word faith churches I was in as a young Christian.

Does the Scriptures teach that there is a big end time revival with Joels or Elijahs army leading the way with great signs and wonders doing greater things than Jesus did.

NO

The scripture teaches that there will be a great falling away (2 Thess 2:3)

Lying signs and wonders”For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” Matt. 24:24

2 Thessalonians 2:9-15

“Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.”

Hardly what is being preached from many pupits today.The thing that really flagged me on all this was not just the “touch not mine anointed” and warning that the wrath of God would come on me if we touched Dan Bohi.

It was the fact that people (some who are friends) seemed to forget this verse

Acts 17:11
New King James Version (NKJV)

11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

No problem examing what Paul said.

Why not the same standard with Dan Bohi or any one else for that matter?

Do you think maybe God told them so?

Well I would encourage you to not just take my word for it. But go listen to the sermons and see for yourselves. Then come to your own conclusions.

More on the signs and wonders movement to come!

New DVD The Emerging Church

2009-07-18T14:00:00.011-04:00

We have a new DVD out warning the Body of Christ about the heresy of the Emergent Church. The DVD features Gary Gilley, Ray Yungen,Mike Oppenheimer, Johanna Michalesen, and Sandy Simpson.
The DVD was put out with the Nazarene denomination because the Emergent Church has been bought into the denomination via some of its leadership and is currently being overrun by Emergent heresy.
But the DVD applies to all the Body of Christ and is currently being used in many different churches and denominations as a teaching tool.
You can of course order copies free of charge by sending me a email at nogoofyzone@hotmail.com

Here is a link to the preview on U Tube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmo6sJnbrOA

Truth or Lie's Rick Warren's Moral Facade

2009-05-17T11:05:00.001-04:00

Truth or Lies?
Rick Warren's Moral Facade
By Berit Kjos - April 9, 2009
Home

Emphasis added
"'Hear this now, O foolish people, without understanding,
who have eyes and see not, and who have ears and hear not:
Do you not fear Me?’ says the Lord. ‘Will you not tremble at My presence...?'
But this people has a defiant and rebellious heart;
They have revolted and departed.
They do not say in their heart, 'let us now fear the Lord our God,
Who gives rain... in its season...'" Jeremiah 5:21-24
In an article titled "Rick Warren disavows support for Prop. 8," Jim Brown writes,

"California mega-church pastor and author of The Purpose Driven Life Rick Warren says he apologized to his homosexual friends for making comments in support of California's Proposition 8, and now claims he 'never once even gave an endorsement' of the marriage amendment."[1]

During a recent CNN interview on Larry King Live, Warren assured his host that-

"During the whole Proposition 8 thing, I never once went to a meeting, never once issued a statement, never -- never once even gave an endorsement in the two years Prop. 8 was going."[2]

But he was lying! According to Brown, Pastor Warren had "issued a clear endorsement of the marriage amendment while speaking to church members." Ponder Warren's stated position two weeks before the Prop. 8 vote on November 4:

"The election's coming just in a couple of weeks, and I hope you're praying about your vote....

"Now let me say this really clearly: we support Proposition 8 -- and if you believe what the Bible says about marriage, you need to support Proposition 8. I never support a candidate, but on moral issues I come out very clear.

"This is one thing, friends, that all politicians tend to agree on. Both Barack Obama and John McCain, I flat-out asked both of them: what is your definition of marriage? And they both said the same thing -- it is the traditional, historic, universal definition of marriage: one man and one woman, for life. And every culture for 5,000 years, and every religion for 5,000 years, has said the definition of marriage is between one man and a woman.

"Now here's an interesting thing. There are about two percent of Americans [who] are homosexual or gay/lesbian people. We should not let two percent of the population determine to change a definition of marriage.... So I urge you to support Proposition 8, and pass that word on. I'm going to be sending out a note to pastors on what I believe about this."[3]

So where does Pastor Warren actually stand on this issue? What is the source of his moral cues? God's Word -- or forceful leaders who have traded His unchanging Truth for today's evolving moral pragmatism?
His recent statements suggest a total moral U-turn. According to Brown, Warren regrets his earlier position. "There were a number of things that were put out. I wrote to all my gay friends -- the leaders that I knew -- and actually apologized to them. That never got out," he admitted.

Those "gay friends" may serve him well in today's global battlefield for fame and power. As America follows Europe into a moral freefall, Warren's spiritual leadership fits right in. So did his attempt to offer a non-offensive interfaith prayer at Obama's inauguration:

"Help us to share, to serve and to seek the common good of all. May all people of goodwill today join together to work for a more just, a more healthy and a more prosperous nation and a peaceful planet. And may we never forget that one day all nations and all people will stand accountable before you...."

I wonder what kind of accountability Warren referred to. It surely wasn't Biblical. Yes, God will hold us accountable -- but to His standard, not to the shifting standards of Warren or Obama, who approve immorality and despise God's Truth. Look at what God says:

"'Woe to the rebellious children,' says the Lord,
'Who take counsel, but not of Me,
And who devise plans, but not of My Spirit,'" Isaiah 30:1

"...the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.... Professing to be wise, they became fools.... Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves.... God gave them up to vile passions. ... And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased [depraved] mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness." Romans 1:18-32

"Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination?
No! They were not at all ashamed; nor did they know how to blush.
Therefore they shall fall among those who fall;
At the time I punish them, they shall be cast down,' says the Lord." Jeremiah 6:15
As American sovereignty fades under the darkening shadows of an anti-Christian world government, few are prepared to stand firm against the forces that are eroding America's Christian foundations. Instead, the vast majority -- whether they identify with Christianity or not -- have dismissed God's Word and warnings. Making His view of sin irrelevant, they have distorted the true gospel of Christ: the "good news" of redemption from the legal judgment that we (sinners) deserve. Apart from that Biblical gospel, the cross and the resurrection become meaningless.

We can't manipulate Truth without facing consequences. We can't justify sin without blinding ourselves and confusing others. And we can't receive new life in Jesus Christ (regeneration) without--

His merciful (undeserved) grace
Spirit-given conviction of our sins and our continuing enslavement to sin
His substitutionary and atoning death on the cross -- taking the punishment of our sin
In the light of that transformational Truth, we see the cross and the resurrection as the center of history. Everything the Old Testament promised pointed forward to the cross. And all the New Testament promises are based on the cross -- and point us to the resurrection and eternal life in Jesus Christ. As He told us,

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'" John 14:6
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14

Yet, countless "Christians" have claimed to follow Him -- even as they scorn that narrow gate:

"...he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep." John 10:1-5

"...certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ." Jude 4

"Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock... to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears." Acts 20:28-31

No wonder Paul's warnings were accompanied by tears. Many in his beloved churches were caught up in sensual sins and unholy distractions. Distorting the cross and despising "the narrow road," they ignored the call to die to self and share Christ's suffering.

"The wide road" is well traveled in our times. Popular, amoral, and tolerant of everything but God's Word and way, it is paved with nice-sounding intentions and a feel-good "common ground." But it actually leads to arrogance, hostility, division and destruction. After all, "the whole world lies under sway of the wicked one." John 5:19

What then will we choose? The world's compromising highway and delightful illusions -- for this season of time? Or the narrow way that leads to eternal life with our wonderful Lord for all eternity?

"...many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ; whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame -- who set their mind on earthly things.

"...our citizenship is in heaven from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body...." Philippians 3:18-21

Brian McLaren his view on hell,the atonement and other issues

2009-04-01T03:07:00.002-04:00

Unbeliever Brian McLaren and his views on hell and the atonement. Scary that this guy was voted one of the top influential evangelicals by Time Magazine.

source-http://www.time.com/time/press_releases/article/0,8599,1022576,00.html
Folks this guy is not a saved Christian.
He is a Christian in name only.
The video was taken from the bleeding purple podcast found here.

http://www.enteuxis.org/leifh/bleedingpurple21b.mp3

Brian denies that Jesus was God instead Brian lumps Jesus in with Gandhi and Martin Luther King JR and suggests its best to think of Jesus as one of many rather than lift him up as some extraordinary example.
Brian doesn't want us to think of Christianity as an exclusive religion.

But Jesus said in John 14:6
"6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Which contradicts what Brian states.

Do you believe Brian McLaren or Jesus Christ?

You cant believe both.

Brian is also quoted in Preacher Magazine a Nazarene magazine to pastors.
Here-http://www.nph.com/nphweb/html/pmol/emerging.htm

Brian also well as he speaks at Nazarene colleges.

If the Nazarene leadership doesn't even think to protect its own leadership from false teachers who do you think guards the sheep?

Come on folks wake up out of the stupor you are in.

Here are some more Brian McLaren quotes

"I don't think we've got the gospel right yet. What does it mean to be 'saved'?.... I don't think the liberals have it right. But I don't think we have it right either. None of us has arrived at orthodoxy."
––Brian McLaren, The Emergent Mystique, Christianity Today, 2004

"Tony [Campolo] and I might disagree on the details, but I think we are both trying to find an alternative to both traditional Universalism and the narrow, exclusivist understanding of hell [that unless you explicitly accept and follow Jesus, you are excluded from eternal life with God and destined for hell]."
--Brian McLaren’s Inferno 2, Out of Ur, May 2006

"What if Jesus' secret message reveals a secret plan?".... What if he didn't come to start a new religion--but rather came to start a political, social, religious, artistic, economic, intellectual, and spiritual revolution that would give birth to a new world?"
––Brian McLaren, The Secret Message of Jesus, p. 4

“.... Alan Jones is a pioneer in reimagining a Christian faith that emerges from authentic spirituality. His work stimulates and encourages me deeply.” (Brian McLaren's comments on the back flap of Alan Jones' book Reimagining Christianity where Alan Jones states the following about the Christ's crucifixion: "The Church's fixation on the death of Jesus as the universal saving act must end, and the place of the cross must be reimagined in Christian faith. Why? Because of the cult of suffering and the vindictive God behind it." (p. 132)
"The other thread of just criticism addresses the suggestion implicit in the cross that Jesus' sacrifice was to appease an angry god. Penal substitution [the Cross] was the name of this vile doctrine." (p. 168)

“The church latched on to that old doctrine of original sin like a dog to a stick, and before you knew it, the whole gospel got twisted around it. Instead of being God’s big message of saving love for the whole world, the gospel became a little bit of secret information on how to solve the pesky legal problem of original sin.”
--Brian McLaren, The Last Word and the Word After That, p.134

"I must add, though, that I don't believe making disciples must equal making adherents to the Christian religion. It may be advisable in many circumstances to help people become followers of Jesus and remain within their Buddhist, Hindu, or Jewish contexts."
---Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 260

"I am a Christian because I believe that, in all these ways, Jesus is saving the world. By “world” I mean planet Earth and all life on it, because left to ourselves, un-judged, un-forgiven, and un-taught, we will certainly destroy this planet and its residents. And by “the world” I specifically mean human history, because again, it was and is in danger, grave danger, ultimate danger, self-imposed danger, and I don’t believe anyone else can rescue it.”
---Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 97

Warren Smith on "The Shack"

2009-02-03T19:32:00.000-05:00

From my friend and brother in the Lord Warren Smith

THE SHACK & Its New Age Leaven
God IN Everything?

By Warren Smith

“A little leaven leaventh the whole lump.”
- Galatians 5:9

The Shack is being described as a “Christian” novel and is currently ranked number one on the New York Times bestseller list for paperback fiction. Many believers are buying multiple copies and giving them to friends and family. The Shack reads as a true story, but is obviously allegorical fiction. The book conveys postmodern spiritual ideas and teachings that challenge biblical Christianity – all in the name of “God” and “Jesus” and the “Holy Spirit.” Author William P. Young’s alternative presentation of traditional Christianity has both inspired and outraged his many readers. All the while his book continues to fly off the shelves of local bookstores.

Much like New Age author James Redfield’s book The Celestine Prophecy, The Shack is a fictional vehicle for upending certain religious concepts and presenting contrary spiritual scenarios. Allegorical novels can be a clever way to present truth. They can also be used to present things that seem to be true but really are not. Some books like The Shack do both.

I was drawn into the New Age Movement years ago by books and lectures containing parabolic stories that were not unlike The Shack. They felt spiritually uplifting as they tackled tough issues and talked about God’s love and forgiveness. They seemed to provide me with what I spiritually needed as they gave me much needed hope and promise. Building on the credibility they achieved through their inspirational and emotive writings, my New Age authors and teachers would then go on to tell me that “God” was “in” everyone and everything.

I discovered that author William P. Young does exactly the same thing in The Shack. He moves through his very engaging and emotional story to eventually present this same New Age teaching that God is “in” everything.

But I am getting ahead of myself. Let me first provide some background material concerning this key New Age doctrine that “God is in everything.” A good place to start is with Eugene Peterson, the author of the controversial Bible paraphrase The Message. After all, Peterson’s enthusiastic endorsement of The Shack is featured right under the author’s name on the front cover.

Ironically, it was Peterson’s endorsement that caused me to be immediately suspicious of this high-profile, bestselling “Christian” book. Through his questionable paraphrasing of the Bible, Peterson had already aligned himself in a number of areas with New Age/New Spirituality teachings. One obvious example was where he translated a key verse in the Lord’s Prayer to read “as above, so below” rather than “in earth, as it is in heaven.” “As above, so below” was a term that I was very familiar with from my previous involvement in the New Age Movement. This esoteric saying has been an occult centerpiece for nearly five thousand years. It is alleged by New Age metaphysicians to be the key to all magic and all mysteries. It means that God is not only transcendent — “out there”— but He is also immanent — “in” everyone and everything.

But, as I found out just before abandoning the deceptive teachings of the New Age for the Truth of biblical Christianity, God is not “in” everyone and everything. The Bible makes it clear that man is not divine and that man is not God (Ezekiel 28:2, Hosea 11:9, John 2:24-25, etc.) In Deceived on Purpose: The New Age Implications of the Purpose-Driven Church, I quoted the editors of the New Age Journal as they defined “as above, so below” in their book, As Above, So Below:

“'As above, so below, as below, so above.' This maxim implies that the transcendent God beyond the physical universe and the immanent God within ourselves are one.” (p. 32)

My concern about Peterson’s undiscerning use of “as above, so below” in the Lord’s Prayer was underscored when the 2006 bestseller, The Secret, showcased this same occult/New Age phrase. In fact, it was the introductory quote at the very beginning of the book. By immediately featuring “as above, so below” the author Rhonda Byrne was telling her readers in definite New Age language that “God is in everyone and everything.” Towards the end of the book, The Secret puts into more practical words what the author initially meant by introducing the immanent concept of “as above, so below.” On page 164 The Secret tells its readers—“You are God in a physical body.”

Most significantly, in his book The Reappearance of the Christ and the Masters of Wisdom, New Age leader Benjamin Crème reveals that a New World Religion will be based on this foundational “as above, so below” teaching of immanence — this idea that God is “in” everyone and everything:

“But eventually a new world religion will be inaugurated which will be a fusion and synthesis of the approach of the East and the approach of the West. The Christ will bring together, not simply Christianity and Buddhism, but the concept of God transcendent — outside of His creation — and also the concept of God immanent in all creation — in man and all creation.” (p. 88)

New Age matriarch Alice Bailey, in her book The Reappearance of the Christ, wrote:

“…a fresh orientation to divinity and to the acceptance of the fact of God Transcendent and God Immanent within every form of life. “These are foundational truths upon which the world religion of the future will rest.” (p. 88) [link added]

In a November 9, 2003 Hour of Power sermon – just two months before he was a featured speaker at the annual meeting of the National Association of Evangelicals – Crystal Cathedral minister Robert Schuller unabashedly aligned himself with this same New Age/New World Religion teaching. The man who claims to have mentored thousands of pastors, including Bill Hybels and Rick Warren, stated:

“You know in theology — pardon me for using a couple of big words — but in theology the God we believe in, this God of Abraham, is a transcendent God. But He is also an immanent God. Transcendent means up there, out there, above us all. But God is also an immanent God — immanence of God and the transcendence of God — but then you have a balanced perspective of God. The immanence of God means here, in me, around me, in society, in the world, this God here, in the humanities, in the science, in the arts, sociology, in politics — the immanence of God…. Yes, God is alive and He is in every single human being!”

But God is not in every single human being. God is not in everything. One of the many reasons I wrote Deceived on Purpose was because Rick Warren presented his readers with this same “God in everything” teaching. Quoting an obviously flawed New Century Bible translation of Ephesians 4:6, Rick Warren — whether he meant to or not — was teaching his millions of readers the foundational doctrine of the New World Religion. Describing God in his book, The Purpose-Driven Life, he wrote:

“He rules everything and is everywhere and is in everything.” (p. 88)

Compounding the matter further, “immanence” has been taught as part of the Foundations class at Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church. An ill-defined reference to immanence on page 46 of the Saddleback Foundations Participants Guide plays right into the hands of the New Spirituality/New World Religion by stating:

“The fact that God stands above and beyond his creation does not mean he stands outside his creation. He is both transcendent (above and beyond his creation) and immanent (within and throughout his creation).”

All of this discussion about “God in everything” immanence is to explain why The Shack is such a deceptive book. It teaches this same heresy. This book ostensibly attempts to deal with the deeply sensitive issues surrounding the murder of a young child. Because of the author’s intensely personal story line, most readers become engaged with the book on a deep emotional level. However, the author’s use of poetic license to convey his highly subjective, and often unbiblical, spiritual views becomes increasingly problematic as the story line develops. This is most apparent when he uses the person of “Jesus” to suddenly introduce the foundational teaching of the New Spirituality/New World Religion — God is “in” everything. Using the New Age term “ground of being” to describe “God,” the “Jesus” of The Shack states:

“God, who is the ground of all being, dwells in, around, and through all things….” (p. 112)

This false teaching about a “God” who “dwells in, around, and through all things” is the kind of New Age leaven that left unchallenged could leaven the church into the New Age/New Spirituality of the proposed New World Religion. And while many people have expressed a great deal of emotional attachment to The Shack and its characters — this leaven alone contaminates the whole book.

Clearly, the “Jesus” of The Shack is not Jesus Christ of the Bible. The apostle Paul chided the Corinthians and warned them that they were vulnerable and extremely susceptible to “another Jesus” and “another gospel” and “another spirit” that were not from God (2 Corinthians 11:4). In the Bible, the real Jesus Christ warned that spiritual deception would be a sign before His return. He further warned that there would be those who would even come in His name, pretending to be Him (Matthew 24:3-5;24).

Without ascribing any ill motive to William Young and his book The Shack, the author’s use of spiritual creativity seems to give a “Christian” assent to the New Age/New Spirituality of the proposed New World Religion. His mixing of truth and error can become very confusing to readers, and God is not the author of confusion (I Corinthians 14:33).

Dr. Harry Ironside, pastor of Chicago’s Moody Memorial Church from 1930-1948, emphasizes the fact that truth mixed with error results in “all error” — a direct refutation of the Emergent Church teaching to find “truth” wherever it may be found — including books like The Shack. Ironside wrote:

“Error is like leaven, of which we read, ‘A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.’ Truth mixed with error is equivalent to all error, except that it is more innocent looking and, therefore, more dangerous. God hates such a mixture! Any error, or any truth-and-error mixture, calls for definite exposure and repudiation. To condone such is to be unfaithful to God and His Word and treacherous to imperiled souls for whom Christ died.” (quoted in The Berean Call, April 2008)

The Shack has touched the hearts and emotions of many people. While there are many other examples of the author’s unbiblical liberality, introducing the heretical New Age teaching that “God dwells in, and around, and through all things” is in and by itself enough to completely undermine any value the book might otherwise have for faithful believers. To allow yourself to get carried away by this story, while disregarding the book’s New Age/New Spirituality leaven, is to fall prey to the “truth-and-error” mixture that pervades The Shack. And as Dr. Ironside warned—“God hates such a mixture.”

Before Christians buy one more copy of this book, they need to come to terms with what this author is ultimately teaching and what it is they are passing along to their friends and fellow believers.

The Truth:

“And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” (1 Timothy 4:4)

Warren Smith is the author of numerous articles and books on the topic of the New Age/New Spirituality and how it is entering the evangelical church.

Deceived on Purpose: The New Age Implications of the Purpose-Driven Church
The Light that was Dark: From the New Age to Amazing Grace
Reinventing Jesus Christ: The New Gospel

FYI

2009-02-01T10:34:00.001-05:00

Hi to all: I am wrapping up being at a conference in Tempe,AZ with a lot of friends and brothers and sisters in the Lord. Spent some great time with my friend and brother Buck Storm worshipping the Lord and playing some wonderful music. Always good to play music with Buck.
Also spent a lot of time with our good friends Don and Sue Butler. Iron sharpens Iron.
Plus it was great to meet Jacob Prasch, David Hocking, Bill Koening, Dr Rick Oliver, Randall Price as well as spending some time with my friend and brother in the Lord Warren Smith.
Warren did a great job on exposing the book "The Shack". More to come on that as well as topics the others addressed.
Pastor John Higgins was a wonderful host as well.
More to come on all this and lots of information coming this week once I get back and have had time to rest.

I will also be shutting off all comment's on all my blogs and website's.
It is a free country and people can respond to what I write and post on their own blogs.
To many times debate just turns into a schoolyard fight with people just gathering to watch the fight.
People in both camps.
I will lose hits because when you have guys like Richie Abanes, Greg Horton, or even Michael Newnham at Phoenix Preacher.
It all just crumbles down to petty bickering, and foollish talk .
None of which builds up the Body of Christ.

There is a lot more unity than you would think.
At the conference I saw people who didnt agree 100% with each other come together with a common purpose.
I was also very encouraged to see the huge amount of young people at the conference who were hungry for truth and acurate information in this great time of deception.
I have asked some people mostly in the Nazarene denomination to reply publically they can still do that from their own blog, websites and or pulpits.
Again more on all this later this week.
We will also be expanding our links page make sure you check that out.
I can still be contacted by email for any concerns
More to come next week.
Peace and Blessings
Tim Wirth

Mass Hypnosis disguised as worship music at a Todd Bentley service

2009-01-02T12:37:00.007-05:00

This really ticks me off as a Christian musician. This is old Todd Bentley stuff. I commented on this before but not only was Todds band not very good at all but cant people see this is not of God?Wow amazing the deception going on in Gods name these days. Watch as this misguided women whip up peoples flesh into a frenzy.Also note the other video which show the false revival by comparision eye opening as well. None of this is of God folks. Not because I say so. But because scripture-Gods Word says so-Tim

An ex faith healer explain tricks used

2009-01-02T12:32:00.002-05:00

Great video by Todd Friel. You can also apply this to contemplative and centering prayer which is being promoted by the Emergent Church and others.

Allelon, Missional and The Nazarene Connection

2008-12-24T00:03:00.003-05:00

New article by Sandy Simpson. Lots of information-
Peace Tim

What is the history and mission of Allelon?

Long Answer: On the “history” section of the Allelon site (http://www.allelon.org/history.cfm) there is no real history of the movement presented. That is because I suspect they do not want people to know too much about the dubious the history of the movement. The leadership of the EC is currently Brian McLaren, Leonard Sweet, Richard Foster (McLaren said of Richard Foster, “with (his) emphasis on spiritual disciplines, (he is a) key mentor for the emerging church” … his organization is called Renovare), Doug Paggit, Alan Jones, Dan Kimbal, Erwin McManus, Michael Horton and many others. Their influences are Thomas Merton (Roman Catholic mystic and one of Richard Foster’s chief mentors along with George Fox), Morton Kelsey (a certified Jungian analyst), Basil Pennington (who promoted Christianizing Eastern mysticism for use in the churches), Benedictine Monks (Roman Catholics), Ignatius Loyola (Benedictine monk), Madeleine L'Engle (New Age author), Thomas Keating (originator of “centering prayer” taken from Zen sesshin), Harvey Cox (an activist for the syncretism of all religions), Agnes Sanford (of the Inner Healing movement and promoter of occultist Carl Jung), Madame Guyon (pantheist), John of the Cross (a Roman Catholic Desert Father), Evelyn Underhill (authored Practical Mysticism, an expression of Hindu/Catholic “spiritual” exercises), Thomas Kelly (contemplative and Universalist), Tilden Edwards (contemplative prayer and East/West mystical “bridge” promoter), William Vaswig (Renovare member who, like Foster learned his meditation from Agnes Sanford and a great admirer of occultist Carl Jung and his “sitting in silence” therapy), Karen Mains (Jungian adherent who has a spirit guide), Lynda Graybeal (promoter of Spiritual Formation and the Renovare Bible), Jean-Pierre de Caussade (Roman Catholic Jesuit monk), Meister Eckhart (pantheist), George Fox (Quaker founder, contemplative and Universalist), Henri Nouwen (Buddhist sympathizer and New Ager), Teresa of Avila (Desert “Mother” contemplative who practiced centering prayer), Brother Lawrence (who taught the emptying of the mind), Julian of Norwich (pantheist), Siang Yan Tan (psychologist), Lao-Tse (Taoism), Zarathrustra (Zorastrianism), David Spangler (New Age teacher), Matthew Fox (apostate ex-priest of the Catholic Church), John Main (a Roman Catholic priest and monk of the Order of Saint Benedict, a contemplative), Brennan Manning (author of The Ragamuffin Gospel and promoter of contemplative prayer), Marianne Williamson (New Ager), Ken Wilber (New Ager and author of A Theory of Everything, a term Leonard Sweet says is his idea), Archbishop Desmond Tutu (African Anglican Archbishop who promotes Interfaithism and the UN), Mark Mossa (RCC Jesuit scholastic), Leo Tolstoy (Russian novelist baptized as a Mormon), Fyodor Dostoyevsky (Russian novelist and founding father of Existentialism), Walker Percy (novelist and Catholic existentialist) and the list of New Agers and false teachers goes on and on. (http://web.archive.org/web/20080212062607/http:/www.abrahamic-faith.com/James/Richard-Foster.html and other sources such as Wikipedia.)

This should make people suspect because of the fact that one of their adherents, Eddy Gibbs, claims that Church history needs to be redefined through the lens of EC ideas. If they cannot present their own history, on what basis should people have confidence that they can or should be redefining Church history?

In a slickly produced video on the Allelon website they speak of their mission, not their history per se (http://www.allelon.org/history.cfm). Brian McLaren is featured on the video so one can see clearly that the history of Allelon is directly tied to that of the Emerging Church (EC) leadership, since McLaren in one of the founders of the movement. The video shows one of the Allelon “Summer Institute” sessions were held at Fuller Seminary in CA. Fuller is the biggest promoter of every false doctrine out there, which started with C. Peter Wagner and John Wimber and their “signs and wonders” classes and continuing in featured speakers from every false Latter Rain revival movement. Now they are one of the biggest promoters of the latest “new thing” by sponsoring EC “dialogs” with the likes of McLaren and others featured on the video. George Fox University, a Quaker (Friends) institution, is also mentioned on the video and many segments were filmed there. GFU is another hotbed of EC ideas partly because of the influence of Richard Foster and Leonard Sweet there. They claim that they are introducing “something radical and transforming to the Church.” Isn’t Christ’s atoning sacrifice on the cross for the sins of men and the living and active Word of God radical and transforming enough for the Church? When you get away from these things is it really “radical and transforming” or is it just another type of Gnosticism or new revelation? One of the participants on the video, Steve Taylor, PHD, who it says is a pastor, author, teacher, blogger, states this:

“So much of the emerging/postmodern conversation, which I’m part of and I’m committed to …” (Video, http://www.allelon.org/history.cfm)

Looks like commitment to EC and postmodernism may be more important than the Gospel. Chris Erdmen, D. Min, a pastor, writer, professor, blogger says admits that the Emerging Church doesn’t know where they are going but “together we’ll find a way”. But we are not the ones who decide where we are going. The Bible is our map. Since McLaren took the EC “off the map” this is what you end up with … a type of religion marked by uncertainty and run by consensus. Dr. Eddy Gibbs, a professor at Fuller, states that their whole curriculum is now going to the EC missional model.

We have a particular burden for people involved in new forms of missional communities (sometimes called "emerging"), people starting new congregations within denominational systems, and people in existing congregations, who are working towards missional identity and engagement. Our desire is to encourage, support, coach, and offer companionship for missional leaders as they discern new models of church capable of sustaining a living and faithful witness to the gospel in our contemporary world. (http://www.allelon.org/history.cfm)

Gibbs also states that Fuller needs to look at “everything”, including the teaching of Greek and Hebrew and Church history “through missional eyes”.

I’m not for the dumbing-down of theology. But I believe we need a missional theology. That means going through our total curriculum, even to the way you teach Greek and Hebrew, and looking at that through missional eyes. The way you teach church history …” (Dr. Eddy Gibbs, http://www.allelon.org/history.cfm)

So, in essence, it is the intent of the leadership of the EC to strain everything through the grid of EC “missional” teachings and postmodern thought rather than looking at these issues based on what the Bible and the Holy Spirit have and are teaching us. This represents a form of cultural fairytale hermeneutics instead of contextual Biblical hermeneutics. Apparently the diaprax is complete among the EC promoters and they intend to get all the churches in line with their “new” paradigm, rewriting the Bible and history in the process. We see this process already being played out in the Indigenous Peoples Movement (WCGIP), Bible societies, and in organizations tied to the New Apostolic where history is being rewritten to offer a “god” who has always been at work in every culture, has left enough evidence in those cultures for people to be regenerate, and makes God into a pantheistic, postmodern, culturally based and understood, god. This is evidenced by EC adherent Dr. Leanne van Dyke when she states on the video:

In sort of a “post-Christendom world”, missional theology paints the “God picture” very big and then puts us, the Church, in relationship to that God. (Dr. Leanne van Dyke, http://www.allelon.org/history.cfm)

Just how big that painting is can already be seen in the promotion of God as being the “God of Japan”, the “God of the Hawaiians”, the “God of the First Nations”, etc. by people like Richard Twiss, Daniel Kikawa, and many other WCGIP promoters. Looks like the EC is in lockstep with the erroneous ideas spread by people like Don Richardson, C. Peter Wagner and a whole host of NAR proponents. The question is: which god is “that god” she is talking about? Dr. Mark Lau Branson of Fuller Seminary states this on the video:

“Now that you’ve figured out there is no plan, what’s next? And simply having someone articulate that, that we’re not real sure what the plan is, but there are still leadership capacities, there are still ways to interpret your church and your community, there are still ways to understand yourself better as a leader …: (http://www.allelon.org/history.cfm)

Sounds like they have deconstructed Christianity but are not sure just how to reconstruct it. This shows the fallacy of the diaprax that Christianity is and has been for some time ineffective at transforming people’s lives. The EC promoters were so stuck in vilifying the Church they forgot that getting “off the map” would get themselves lost in the chaos of existentialism. That is exactly what is happening according to Dr. Craig van Gelder.

The word missional has become a catch phrase. An awful lot of energy, on the one hand, but high ambiguity and confusion, oftentimes, on the other hand. (http://www.allelon.org/history.cfm)

What would then make the scheme these people have cooked up attractive to any true believer? When you get away from the Biblical mandate and Biblical teachings, you end up with a lot of misspent energy that leads to ambiguity and confusion. Why is it that Gelder is not heeding his own words and getting out of this movement?

We have to find a way of being church were people are in a way that’s authentic to the Gospel but helpful and transformative to their lives. (Bishop Graham Cray, http://www.allelon.org/history.cfm)

It becomes quite apparent when listening to Cray do his diaprax on the failings of the Church, that he knows little or nothing of Church history, which he and his associates are desperately trying to rewrite. I happen to be a PK and MK and I know what it is like to give up everything, move to a far away place, learn the language, and give your life as an example in both caring for people beyond your own country and preaching the Gospel at the same time. Shame on the EC leadership for suggesting that this has not been done before they came along with their “new paradigm”. Again I stress that “missional” has nothing to do with mission work.

To understand the word “missional” you have to go to the source. Brian McLaren coined the term “missional”, not in reference to traditional mission work in the churches, but in reference to the praxis of spreading the concepts and ideas of the EC movement. His original” off the map” series ends the dialectic with the praxis of a “missional” response to his EC teachings.

Brian McLaren, on the other hand, is not concerned about these matters (preaching salvation). In reply to his own question about who is in heaven and hell, he neatly sidesteps the whole issue by asking another series of questions, "Isn’t it clear that I do not believe this is the right question for a missional Christian to ask? Can’t we talk for a while about God’s will being done on earth as in heaven instead of jumping to how to escape earth and get to heaven as quickly as possible? Can’t we talk for a while about overthrowing and undermining every hellish stronghold in our lives and in our world? (as cited in The Kingdom of Emergent Theology - Part 2 by Gary Gilley, Think On These Things, 10/07, http://www.svchapel.org/Resources/Articles/read_articles.asp?id=140)

So Allelon is in full compliance and agreement with Brian McLaren and is the outworking of his and other EC leadership vision. This is bolstered by their recommendation of reading materials on their site with books by by Brian D. McLaren, Alan Roxburgh, Bishop Desmond Tutu, Scott Boren, Craig Van Gelder, etc. (http://astore.amazon.com/allelon-20)

In the Allelon purpose statement they mix what the New Testament says about Christians loving one another in the context of the Church with loving the world.

The word allelon is a common but overlooked New Testament word that is reciprocal in nature. Christian faith is not an individual matter. Everything in the life of the church is done allelon for the sake of the world. A Christian community is defined by the allelon sayings in Scripture. We are to love one another; We are to pursue one another's good; We are to build up one another; We are to bear with one another in love; We are to bear one another's burdens; We are to be kind to one another; We are to be compassionate to one another; We are to be forgiving one another; We are to submit to one another; We are to consider one another better than ourselves; We are to be devoted to one another in love; We are to live in harmony with one another. (http://www.allelon.org/history.cfm)

This is a good example of taking the Bible out of context, which is another hallmark of EC leadership. The passage they are quoting, in part Col. 3:12-15, is talking about love within the context of the body of Christ, not love of the world or its way of thinking.

Col. 3:14-15 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.

The word “allelon” is used in the Bible, in every case except one, with regards to the unity and love within the body of Christ, not regarding unity or love for the world. (http://net.bible.org/search.php?search=greek_strict_index:240) Examples:

2 Cor. 13:12 Greet one another (allelon) with a holy kiss.
1 Thes. 4:18 Therefore encourage each other (allelon) with these words.
Acts 4:15 But when they had ordered them to go outside the council, they began to confer with one another (allelon),
Rom. 12:10 Be devoted to one another (allelon) with mutual love, showing eagerness in honoring one another (allelon).

The only exception is Matt. 24:10 where Jesus talks about the apostasy and how people will betray one another.

Matt. 24:20 Then many will be led into sin, and they will betray one another (allelon) and hate one another (allelon).

Interestingly this is what the EC is doing, turning Christianity on its ear with false doctrines that divide families and churches. Those who do not agree with the new paradigm and enter praxis are vilified, demonized and finally ostracized (thank the Lord). Perhaps this is the allelon they are talking about.

We are not in unity with the world. We can have compassion for the people of the world by preaching the Gospel to them and trying to help them in their times of need, but we are not to have unity with the world. So the basic premise of Allelon is in error from the start.

Our Mission
At Allelon, our overarching mission is to educate and encourage the church to become a people among whom God can live, as sign, symbol, and foretaste of his redeeming love and grace in their neighborhoods and the whole of society- ordinary women and men endeavoring to participate in God's mission to reclaim and restore the whole of creation and to bear witness to the world of a new way of being human. (http://www.allelon.org/history.cfm)

Nowhere in their mission statement do they mention the Gospel. It is also not the job of Christian or the Church to “restore the whole of creation”. That is Dominionism, which is another tenant of the EC showing that they are teaching the same false doctrines as the New Apostolic Reformation, or Latter Rain. The Gospel will, by the Holy Spirit, “restore” a relationship to God in individuals who repent and believe, and create in them a new creation. But Allelon is not talking about individuals but the “whole of creation”. Only Jesus Christ’s return at the beginning of the Millennium will restore creation, which is at the moment in the domain of the evil one. The mission of the true believer today is to continue to obey the Great Commission, not get involved in schemes to save the planet.

What is the Mission In Western Culture Project?

Long Answer: The Mission In Western Culture Project (MWCP) is also a project of Allelon. The diaprax of MWCP is evident on their home page. Their “three elements” or fundamentals are: “Our changed context, Mission is about the Missio Dei (the mission of God), and Missional theology sees the Church (the people of God) as a contrast society.” (http://www.allelon.org/projects/mission_western_culture.cfm).

The first element is a vilification of the Church.

We are now living in a changed social context, what might be described as both postmodern and post Christian. … Modern evangelism developed in a time when people assumed the Christian story was a normal, regulative part of the culture within which they lived. Most folk knew the basic Gospel story in one form or another. Evangelism fulfilled the role of presenting an apologetic, which pressed for commitment. It worked in a world where the culture-at-large understood the basic Christian story. This is no longer the case. (http://www.allelon.org/projects/mission_western_culture.cfm )

We are not living in a post-Christian world yet unless the Rapture has already taken place. We have always been living in a sinful world ruled by Satan that has no interest in the things of the Spirit. But that is nothing new. Nor is postmodernism, which is basically relativism and subjectivism. That has been with us since the beginning. Evangelism has always been around in history but has never been a “normal, regulative part of culture.” Perhaps you could make that claim about certain Western cultures, but others have never been “regulated” by the “Christian story”. If you move beyond that very few cultures have been “regulated” by any form of Christianity. Mission work was not the work of apologetics but the work of first time proclamation in most cases. Only in the Western world were people very thinly knowledgeable about Christianity. Even then the true Gospel message was and is still a shock to most people if presented correctly. To say it is no longer the case is to say that Biblical evangelism no longer works in this modern culture. That is hogwash. It doesn’t work because EC proponents have moved beyond it into a new map of their own making, one of confusion and existentialism.

The second element states this:

Mission is about the Missio Dei (the mission of God). If the West, including North America, is once again a mission field where the central narratives of the Gospel are being either lost or profoundly compromised by other values and stories, then the focus of this mission is the God who has encountered us in Jesus Christ ? the One whom we confess in the Trinitarian confession of Father, Son and Spirit. This may seem such an obvious statement that requires no explicit comment, but that?s not the case. In Western societies, churches have shifted their focus from God to how God serves and meets our needs. Jesus Christ has been packaged as a choice in the spiritual food court used to meet the private needs of individuals. The result is a debased, compromised, sterilized Christianity, which misrepresents the Gospel. The gospel is not just a matter of personal salvation; rather, it is a call to participate in the communal and global purposes of God. The biblical narratives revolve around God?s mission in, through, and for the sake of the world. The focus of attention is toward God not the other way around. The missio dei is about a God-centered rather than a meeting-personal-need centered understanding of Jesus? life, death and resurrection. (http://www.allelon.org/projects/mission_western_culture.cfm)

The Gospel is being lost not because there are so many other religious “stories” abounding but because many churches are no longer preaching the Gospel and have not been for some time. That almost empty void has been filled with other things, by the devil I might add. If the Church would get back to the Gospel we would see more people being saved. It is counterproductive, in fact counterintuitive, to widen out our “story” to include other stories just so we can fit in. It is true that many mega churches have shifted their focus off of God to “felt needs”. But the solution to that problem is not to declare that the Gospel is “not just a matter of personal salvation”. The whole point of the Gospel IS personal salvation (John 3:3, 7). Without that a person will not be light and salt no matter how well he interacts and agrees with other “stories”, ie. religions. God’s purposes, in this time, are not to take over the planet. His purpose is for people, individuals, to recognize their sin, repent and believe in Jesus Christ as their only Savior and Lord, then move on to serve Him by witnessing to others. Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world but it takes a personal belief and commitment to appropriate that price paid for the wages of sin to each and every individual. The goal of the true Christian today is not to save the world or the planet, but to be witnesses for Him (Acts 22:15, 2 Cor. 5:20) often speaking as the vast minority (Luke 12:32, Matt. 7:14, Rom. 11:5). This “misso dei” is, then, a misapplied term being used to serve a Dominionist agenda. Dominionism is clear false doctrine.

The third element states this:
Missional theology sees the Church (the people of God) as a contrast society. We recognized that our culture continues to move through massive levels of discontinuous change, which is rapidly de-centering the church from its former place at the center. This raises fundamental questions about the relationship between Christian life and the pluralist culture in which we live. In terms of the latter, the message of Jesus is the breaking-in of God?s Kingdom reign into the world. Therefore, the church is the called-out community of God in midst of the specificity of a culture. The church is an ecclesia, which means an assembly that has been called out in a public way as a sign, witness, and foretaste of where God is inviting all creation in Jesus Christ. The church, in its life together and witness in the world, proclaims the destiny and future of all creation. The God we meet in Jesus calls the church to be a community of people who no longer live for themselves and their own needs but as a contrast society whose life together manifests God?s future for the whole of creation. (http://www.allelon.org/projects/mission_western_culture.cfm)
The church has never been the center of society, not by a long shot. God is not in the process of “breaking in” His Kingdom. He is in the process of redeeming sinners who will participate in His Kingdom when it is established. If people are busy “breaking in” what they perceive as God’s Kingdom they will be shocked to find out they were not living in obedience to the Lord when He comes (as a thief). We are to do more than be a community of contrast. We are to be a community of truth proclamation and truth life. If the truth of redemption is not clearly proclaimed all our Christian machinations will have been in vain. It is true that our culture should be that laid down by Christ and the Apostles. But we cannot do that by compromise with the world, only by contrast and the real contrast are the exclusive claims of Christ in a world that does not believe.

Joh 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me.
Ac 4:12 Salvation is found in no-one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

It is already a hate crime in some countries to make exclusive claims of salvations against the truth claims of others. If EC followers cannot distinguish between the exclusive claims of Christ and the “truth” claims of other religions because the EC leadership is enamored with those other “stories” and “truths” then how can they call this progress? Where there is no understanding that the Bible is THE Truth (John 17:17) , that Jesus Christ is THE truth (John 14:6), there can be no truthful dialog or salvation, for that matter.
Who is Alan Roxburgh and what is his connection to Allelon and the Mission In Western Culture Project?

Long Answer: Alan serves as the Vice President for Allelon Canada. He is the Director of Educational Resources throughout North America and serves as the coordinating team leader for the Mission in Western Culture Project. He has over twenty-seven years of experience in church leadership as a pastor of congregations in small towns, urban centers and the suburbs and in denominational leadership. As seminary faculty he was responsible for teaching in the areas of leadership development and domestic missiology. Alan is ordained in the Baptist Federation of Canada. (http://www.allelon.org/roxburgh/?page_id=2)

ALAN J. ROXBURGH, formerly pastor of churches in Toronto and
Vancouver, completed a Master of Theology at the University of Toronto
in philosophical theology, and the Doctor of Ministry degree at Northern
Baptist Seminary in Chicago, Illinois. As an original member of Gospel
and our Culture Network (GOCN), Dr. Roxburgh has helped author
two foundational books: The Church Between Gospel and Culture
(Eerdmans, 1996) and, Missional Church: A Vision for the Sending of the
Church in North America (Eerdmans, 1998). He has also written two other
books on the challenges of missional identity on North America: Reaching
a New Generation (InterVarsity Press, 1991 & Regent Press, 1998); and,
Leadership, Liminality and the Missionary Congregation (Trinity Press, 1998). (http://www.percept1.com/pacific/PDF/CrossingBridge.pdf)

Northern Baptist Seminary is now teaching and endorsing the Emerging Church. (http://www.seminary.edu/cur.student/documents/DMIN7615-KUHL.july.18.22.2005.pdf) The University of Toronto is a completely liberal school. In their course descriptions one of their courses is “Cultivating a Culture of Generosity” offered through Emmanuel College which promotes the Emerging Church. (http://www.utoronto.ca/knox/pages/Continuing%20Education/ConEd%202008%20brochure.pdf) So apparently the type of “theological” education Roxburgh received has influenced or been influenced by the paradigm of the EC. Of course Fuller Seminary offers Roxburgh materials. (http://www.fullerseminarybookstore.com/search_results.php?id_author=726) Roxburgh is of course the VP of Allelon and heads the Mission in Western Culture Project under Allelon.
Roxburgh Teachings

Long Answer:

There’s been a dis-ease in the back of my mind for a while about the directions of the missional conversation in North America. I’ve written about one: it’s too ecclesiocentric. Most of what I read with missional in its title is about the church and making the church work with new formulas and programs. The missional conversation is about what God is up to in the world; church conversations are a sub-set we’ve turned into the main thing. (Alan Roxburgh, Seeking a Missional Imagination, http://www.allelon.org/roxburgh/?p=60)

I am not saying everything Roxburgh teaches is false. What I am saying is that he is laying error alongside truth, which ends up nullifying the true things he is saying by leading people into error. That is the case with all false teachers. Not all false teachers start out that way, but some start out good then fall into the apostasy, which is rife with false teachings. If he would only take his own advice about his “dis-ease” with missional teachings maybe he could find his way back out. But even his dis-ease is based on a false idea. The Church IS what God is up to in the world, therefore “church conversations” are of paramount importance and the “main thing” if Christians are to preach the Gospel to the world. The main focus of the Lord is on His Church first (1 John 4:4-5, 5:5). The Church is then set with the task of reaching the world, but not by pretending that the world knows anything about God, which is what EC leaders mean by “what God is up to in the world”. The Bible is clear that the world rejected God (1 Pet. 2:4), were without God (Eph. 2:12) and did not know God (1 Thes. 4:5, Gal. 4:8). God was a mystery to them (Col. 1:27), they had no hope (Eph. 2:12) and they continued in idolatrous worship (1 Cor. 10:20, 12:2).

Roxburgh goes on to indict the church and teach an idea that is not biblical.

I read books that, basically, retreat into the realm of some ideal imagination that is supposed to provide formulas and methods for the ailing mission of the church in the West. We haven’t got past our Cartesian dualism with its romantic idealisms about the nature of God’s mission in the world. We need a different imagination. (Alan Roxburgh, Seeking a Missional Imagination, http://www.allelon.org/roxburgh/?p=60)

First of all, the only reason mission work is ailing is because of the false teaching going on around the world in churches these people had no part in planting. Now people from those churches are being diapraxed to have a bad attitude toward Christan mission work so that they will follow these unbiblical latecomers who use their imaginations instead of follow the easily understood commands of Jesus Christ and the Apostles. They have gone beyond what is written and instead are building a new paradigm based on their own ideas.

1Co 4:6 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.
Isa 65:2 All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations—
Eze 13:2 "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who are now prophesying. Say to those who prophesy out of their own imagination: ‘Hear the word of the LORD!

What we need is not a new paradigm based on the imaginations of men, but a clear understanding and application of the eternally relevant Word of God.

This series offers frameworks for understanding how our metaphorical maps have changed. It proposes ways of developing maps for cultivating local communities of witness and mission. (Missional Map-Making: Chapter Five, by Alan Roxburgh, February 15, 2008, http://www.allelon.org/articles/article.cfm?id=741)

This teaching shows that the foundation laid by Brian McLaren in his “Off The Map” series is being carried to fruition by other EC leaders like Alan Roxburgh. The maps have not changed, nor is postmodernism anything really new. The Bible states that even back in the times of the Judges “every man did that which was right in his own eyes.” (Judges 17:6) All you have to do is look at the resources for sale in the Allelon store to see that they are promoting the books of other EC leaders. The board of advisors for Allelon are: James V. Brownson (Reformed Church of America), Inagrace T. Dietterich (an ordained United Methodist pastor), Richard Foster (Quaker and founder of Renovare), Darrell L Guder (Presbyterian minister), George Hunsberger (Western Seminary, Presbyterian), Pat Keifert (Luther Seminary, Lutheran) , Brian Mclaren (Cedar Ridge Community Church, non-denominational), Leonard Sweet (lots of degrees, no obvious church affiliation), Eugene Peterson (Regent College, BC), Dallas Willard (School of Philosophy at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles) (http://www.allelon.org/advisory_board.cfm).

One of the most basic rules of good leadership is to do all that cultivates trust in your leadership. Trust is critical for innovating a culture of missional transformation. Leaders who have become aware of these issues need to spend the time understanding what the alternatives to strategic planning involve, as well as what might be the appropriate places for using strategic planning. Therefore, the initial step is to develop a reading list that will assist you to begin reframing your own understanding. What is involved quite literally, is a changing of our maps. Strategic planning represents a specific map of how we see reality, understand people and the nature of change. Time is required to understand and dwell in an alternative map. It is imperative to take this time. People in congregations will leaders this kind of time, as we continue to build and develop trust among our people. (MISSIONAL MAPMAKING -- An Art of the Mission-Shaped Church by Alan Roxburgh, Allelon Publishing, 2008, http://www.allelon.org/pdf/MAPSchpt5.pdf)

I’m sorry but, no matter how well-intentioned this article is, it shows the messy gobbledygook (you need to read it to see what I am talking about) that the EC has gotten itself into by reading the wrong authors and following business models of church development put out by the likes of Rick Warren, Bill Hybels and their mentors like Peter Drucker. It is well documented that the leaders of churches who are deep into EC have already been “developing a reading list” … but of all the wrong authors. If they had put the Bible on the top of their reading list they would know that what the Apostles wrote with regard to church planting and development is more than sufficient to any time in history, including this postmodern era. The fact that so many churches have strayed away and are having a hard time finding a way back is not going to be helped by reading EC tomes. The problem is not changing maps but getting the original map back in play. It is amazing to me that someone who calls himself a Christian would not recognize just how far off he has wandered when he states that we need a strategic planning map to let us understand “how we see reality, understand people and the nature of change”. It is called, pick up your Bible (not The Message Bible), open it up, and learn all about reality, people and change. The problem is that EC leadership has been dwelling for far too long on “an alternative map” drawn by people like Brian McLaren, Leonard Sweet and other EC leaders rather than on the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Apostles and prophets.

The questions we need to ask about missional, therefore, are not drawn from the world of business or the social sciences, nor are they about how to apply supposed New Testament patterns to the contemporary church. Questions about what God is up to in the world require us to ask what kind of space church leadership must indwell at this moment in late modern societies. (a quote by Alan Roxburgh in Spaces Between by Len Hjalmarson, http://www.allelon.org/missional_journey/?p=158)

Again, well intentioned as it may seem, Roxburgh admits that he does not want “missional” church shaped by the “world of business or the social sciences” though, if truth be told, that is where much of the material of the EC has been culled. But then he goes on to state that churches should also not “apply supposed New Testament patterns to the contemporary church”. But as I see it this is one of the main problems with churches today … that they often stray way too far away from the early church model. That model is a model that has been almost entirely done away with by mega churches with their postmodern poling and throwback traditions that emulate the early Roman Catholic Church instead of the early New Testament church. But then his solution is to require churches to “ask what kind of space church leadership must indwell at this moment in late modern societies.” I know what I am about to say is not necessarily what he meant, but this sounds very pantheistic and metaphysical to me, not Biblical at all. It is no wonder that the average Christian who finds himself or herself attending EC conferences come away with their minds feeling like they have been turned into rice pudding. True Christian leadership are not concerned with indwelling “space”. They are concerned with obeying the Word of God and not running away from it.

Heb 2:1 We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.
1Ti 1:6 Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk.

The EC leadership are using strange unbiblical language that lead to unbiblical ideas. True believer will recognize strangers who bring a different Word.

Joh 10:5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognise a stranger’s voice."

As in the time of John, these new teachers want to lay down the new game plan, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
“In these biblical narratives God is constantly present in places where no one would logically expect God’s future to emerge and yet it does over and over. There is nothing in these stories about getting the wrong people off the bus and the right people on to accomplish great ends and become the best organization in the world. This God who calls us is always calling the wrong people onto a bus that isn’t expected to arrive.” (Missional Leader, A. Roxburgh, Pg 18, http://www.backyardmissionary.com/)

God is only “present”, in other word at work, in places where the Church is present. This implies that God is at work in pagan cultures through pagan religions in lieu of His Church and the Gospel. If the bus is the bus of false religion, truth laid alongside error, and pagan culture then it is the wrong bus and no believers should be on it. If they are called and sent by God to those places they will be riding the bus of orthodoxy, of the Gospel, of compassion, and of truth.
Alan Roxburgh was up next. He addressed the question of the conference, “What is a missional leader?” And then he gave us his standard responses: “I don’t know,” “Does it matter?” “Who cares?” Why do we want a definition so desperately? Because we are moderns. Definitions are modern constructs. The need to define the missional church and missional leadership is a modern need to define, name, control and plan. So, if I do what I’m not supposed to do (create a definition), the best I could say is, “a missional leader is one who can change as the world changes around him/her.” (http://timneufeld.blogs.com/occasio/2007/06/index.html)

So there need be no definition for “missional”? Could this be a bad excuse for having none? There is always a definition for everything, unless you are a subjectivist who believes that “truth” is always in a state of flux. If definitions are impossible to nail down, then truth is also.

As our culture changes our perceptual maps become dated and the lenses we use become less and less helpful. When this occurs we tend to work harder at our frameworks. Many leaders assume that simply adjusting the map will provide the answers needed. These men and women have not recognized that we are dealing with "discontinuous" change. The old lenses are not allowing them to see things "as they really are." Roxburgh quotes from Surfing the Edge of Chaos, that in times of discontinuous change "equilibrium is death." (Alan Roxburgh, The Sky Is Falling !?!, http://www.nextreformation.com/wp-admin/reviews/falling.htm)

I would completely disagree with Roxburgh’s quote of “Surging the Edge of Chaos”. There is nothing more necessary during time of change than equilibrium, the equilibrium of the never changing, eternal Word of God. The problem is the lenses EC leadership are looking through are the lenses of culture rather than the lenses of Scripture. If they want to understand modern culture all they have to do is look at it through the lessons of history and theography of the Bible. It is there we can find answers on how to reach people, not with new programs set on top of new programs which never work and only confuse the core issues.

What is the Nazarene connection to all this?

Long Answer: The Allelon Missional Schools Project was launched after papers were written to explain the teachings of Allelon. The four papers what were written were by Dr Dean Blevins: Nazarene Theological Seminary - Kansas City, Dr Mark Lau Branson/Dr Ryan Bolger: Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena, Dr S. Mark Heim: Andover Newton Theological School, Dr J. Nelson Kraybill: Associated Mennonite Biblical Seminary, Elkhart, Indiana (http://www.allelon.org/articles/article.cfm?id=335)

The tradition of the Church of the Nazarene is best described as Methodist, or
“Wesleyan” to acknowledge Holiness and some Pentecostal movements often framed as renewal movements inside Methodism. … As will be seen; missional proclivities remain woven, to some degree, into the DNA of Wesleyan praxis. (http://www.allelon.org/ARTICLES/article.cfm?id=327)

Of course one has to wonder how you can have a “missional proclivity” long before that concept was even being used. But this shows that the EC leadership is using the emphasis on praxis already in the Wesleyan churches like the Nazarenes to attempt to ride their false ideas in on that bandwagon.

The 2006 ALLELON SUMMER LEADERSHIP INSTITUTE -- Training and Formation for Missional Leaders was held at Eagle Nazarene Church, 1001 W. State St., Eagle, ID, cost $250. (http://www.churchinnovations.org/05_news/pii_v6_i1/pii_v6_i1_lewis.html)

Notice that Alan Roxburgh was a teacher at this Nazarene church seminar. Here is part of what they presented.

Forming Missional Leaders
Alan Roxburgh and Mark Priddy will provide participants with a clear, well-tested process for identifying the skills and capacities needed to innovate missional life in an existing leadership context. Because pre-course work is involved, the registration deadline for this course is April 30.

So they are not teaching Biblical concepts but “innovating” missional ideas among the leadership of churches.

Forming a Missional Order
This course, led by Tim Keel and Gary Waller, will provide a primer on basic thinking (theology, history, and cultural reflection) about the movement toward ordered communities, the communal considerations, and commitments needed to develop missional environments and the habits and practices necessary to birth missional communities. (http://www.churchinnovations.org/05_news/pii_v6_i1/pii_v6_i1_lewis.html)

They are moving toward “ordered communities” with “communal considerations”? Sounds like Utopian hippie talk to me. The term “birthing” is taken right out of the New Apostolic Reformation. Do Nazarenes want to be innovated into communities where the leadership has total apostolic control over their thoughts, “habits and practices”? If I were a Nazarene I would be really skeptical of this movement at this point.

On the web site “Emergent Nazarenes” there are a whole list of contributors from the Nazarene denomination who are urging the Nazarenes into the EC. (http://emergentnazarenes.blogspot.com/)

The current general superintendents, elected in 2005, are the following: Paul G. Cunningham, James H. Diehl, Nina G. Gunter, Jesse C. Middendorf, Jerry D. Porter and J. K. Warrick. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Nazarene) As far as I can tell all of the above are allowing the Emerging Church into the Church of the Nazarene. On the official Church of the Nazarene site, http://www.nazarene.org they have a whole subset of the site dedicated to Emerging (http://www.nazarenemissions.org/10002/story.aspx). Even their banner on the nazarene.org site uses the words Christian … holiness … missional. Missional is a term of the Emerging Church, not of Biblical Christian churches. The Global Mission Conference, though exposing youth to other cultures, is using the terminology of the EC to bring the young generation into line with EC ideas. (http://www.nazarenemedialibrary.org/MediaView.aspx?mediaId=347e0fe9-5e3f-46e6-8e1a-743ce8db1be7) Terms like “encountering stories” and making them part of yours, “a conversation in God’s global story”, “experience global prayer”, “discuss responsible compassion”, “engage in conversation”, “join the coversation”, and “join the story” are all expressions that are being used in EC conferences. The “missional church” is also expounded upon on the Nazarene main site on this page: http://www.nazarenemedialibrary.org/ using the search term “missional”.

An article by Ron Benefiel who is president of Nazarene Theological Seminary is posted on the Allelon site. (Response to Craig Van Gelder’s - “ENGAGING THE MISSIONAL CHURCH CONVERSATION AS A FRAMEWORK FOR DEVELOPING MISSIONAL THEOLOGY” by Ron Benefiel, President, Nazarene Theological Seminary, Kansas City, MO, http://www.allelon.org/projects/Benefiels_response_CVG.pdf) In that article he states: “I have jotted down some of what I understand to be some of the theological and sociological challenges in moving from the church that “is” toward the missional church that I understand we are called to be.” The problem is that The Bible has not called us to be “missional”, at least not the way it is being defined in the EC. We are called to carry out the Great Commission and to encourage and build one another up in the Faith, that is in sound doctrine. We are to be light and salt to the world, but we are not called to work with every nere-do-well who comes wafting through our churches, denominations or organizations with a “new map”. But it is obvious to me that Nazarene Theological Seminary is being guided by the EC, not solid Biblical teaching. Maybe they should just rename the school “Nazarene Missional Semniary” or “Nazarene We Love McLaren Seminary” or some more appropriate name because they are now spouting the same new unbiblical ideas as the EC and have little interest, apparently, in what the Bible says about how we should carry out the task of evangelism or the teaching of sound doctrine. To be “theological” we must follow what God says, not men who use their imaginations to come up with ways to empower, enrich and make a name for themselves.

So it appears that EC is a done deal in the Church of the Nazarene as it is in many other mainline denominations. Why churches allow individuals with false teachings to come in from the outside and bombard their churches with unbiblical ideas is beyond me.

Long Answer: The Allelon Missional Schools Project was launched after papers were written to explain the teachings of Allelon. The four papers what were written were by Dr Dean Blevins: Nazarene Theological Seminary - Kansas City, Dr Mark Lau Branson/Dr Ryan Bolger: Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena, Dr S. Mark Heim: Andover Newton Theological School, Dr J. Nelson Kraybill: Associated Mennonite Biblical Seminary, Elkhart, Indiana (http://www.allelon.org/articles/article.cfm?id=335)

The tradition of the Church of the Nazarene is best described as Methodist, or
“Wesleyan” to acknowledge Holiness and some Pentecostal movements often framed as renewal movements inside Methodism. … As will be seen; missional proclivities remain woven, to some degree, into the DNA of Wesleyan praxis. (http://www.allelon.org/ARTICLES/article.cfm?id=327)

Of course one has to wonder how you can have a “missional proclivity” long before that concept was even being used. But this shows that the EC leadership is using the emphasis on praxis already in the Wesleyan churches like the Nazarenes to attempt to ride their false ideas in on that bandwagon.

The 2006 ALLELON SUMMER LEADERSHIP INSTITUTE -- Training and Formation for Missional Leaders was held at Eagle Nazarene Church, 1001 W. State St., Eagle, ID, cost $250. (http://www.churchinnovations.org/05_news/pii_v6_i1/pii_v6_i1_lewis.html)

Notice that Alan Roxburgh was a teacher at this Nazarene church seminar. Here is part of what they presented.

Forming Missional Leaders
Alan Roxburgh and Mark Priddy will provide participants with a clear, well-tested process for identifying the skills and capacities needed to innovate missional life in an existing leadership context. Because pre-course work is involved, the registration deadline for this course is April 30.

So they are not teaching Biblical concepts but “innovating” missional ideas among the leadership of churches.

Forming a Missional Order
This course, led by Tim Keel and Gary Waller, will provide a primer on basic thinking (theology, history, and cultural reflection) about the movement toward ordered communities, the communal considerations, and commitments needed to develop missional environments and the habits and practices necessary to birth missional communities. (http://www.churchinnovations.org/05_news/pii_v6_i1/pii_v6_i1_lewis.html)

They are moving toward “ordered communities” with “communal considerations”? Sounds like Utopian hippie talk to me. The term “birthing” is taken right out of the New Apostolic Reformation. Do Nazarenes want to be innovated into communities where the leadership has total apostolic control over their thoughts, “habits and practices”? If I were a Nazarene I would be really skeptical of this movement at this point.

On the web site “Emergent Nazarenes” there are a whole list of contributors from the Nazarene denomination who are urging the Nazarenes into the EC. (http://emergentnazarenes.blogspot.com/)

The current general superintendents, elected in 2005, are the following: Paul G. Cunningham, James H. Diehl, Nina G. Gunter, Jesse C. Middendorf, Jerry D. Porter and J. K. Warrick. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Nazarene) As far as I can tell all of the above are allowing the Emerging Church into the Church of the Nazarene. On the official Church of the Nazarene site, http://www.nazarene.org they have a whole subset of the site dedicated to Emerging (http://www.nazarenemissions.org/10002/story.aspx). Even their banner on the nazarene.org site uses the words Christian … holiness … missional. Missional is a term of the Emerging Church, not of Biblical Christian churches. The Global Mission Conference, though exposing youth to other cultures, is using the terminology of the EC to bring the young generation into line with EC ideas. (http://www.nazarenemedialibrary.org/MediaView.aspx?mediaId=347e0fe9-5e3f-46e6-8e1a-743ce8db1be7) Terms like “encountering stories” and making them part of yours, “a conversation in God’s global story”, “experience global prayer”, “discuss responsible compassion”, “engage in conversation”, “join the coversation”, and “join the story” are all expressions that are being used in EC conferences. The “missional church” is also expounded upon on the Nazarene main site on this page: http://www.nazarenemedialibrary.org/ using the search term “missional”.

An article by Ron Benefiel who is president of Nazarene Theological Seminary is posted on the Allelon site. (Response to Craig Van Gelder’s - “ENGAGING THE MISSIONAL CHURCH CONVERSATION AS A FRAMEWORK FOR DEVELOPING MISSIONAL THEOLOGY” by Ron Benefiel, President, Nazarene Theological Seminary, Kansas City, MO, http://www.allelon.org/projects/Benefiels_response_CVG.pdf) In that article he states: “I have jotted down some of what I understand to be some of the theological and sociological challenges in moving from the church that “is” toward the missional church that I understand we are called to be.” The problem is that The Bible has not called us to be “missional”, at least not the way it is being defined in the EC. We are called to carry out the Great Commission and to encourage and build one another up in the Faith, that is in sound doctrine. We are to be light and salt to the world, but we are not called to work with every nere-do-well who comes wafting through our churches, denominations or organizations with a “new map”. But it is obvious to me that Nazarene Theological Seminary is being guided by the EC, not solid Biblical teaching. Maybe they should just rename the school “Nazarene Missional Semniary” or “Nazarene We Love McLaren Seminary” or some more appropriate name because they are now spouting the same new unbiblical ideas as the EC and have little interest, apparently, in what the Bible says about how we should carry out the task of evangelism or the teaching of sound doctrine. To be “theological” we must follow what God says, not men who use their imaginations to come up with ways to empower, enrich and make a name for themselves.

So it appears that EC is a done deal in the Church of the Nazarene as it is in many other mainline denominations. Why churches allow individuals with false teachings to come in from the outside and bombard their churches with unbiblical ideas is beyond me.

Can you summarize the teachings of Allelon and Alan Roxburgh?

Long Answer:

The EC promoted and taught by groups like Allelon is full of the teachings of false teachers who have introduced ideas and practices that are not Biblical. Here is a partial list:

Pantheism
Anointing "in" objects, cities, nations
Veneration of objects/icons used to visualize
Slain in the "spirit"/Drunkenness in the "spirit"
Synergy
Globalism
Dominionism/Save the planet
Contemplative Prayer/Labyrinth
Visualization
Centering down
Spiritual mapping
Yoga
Martial arts
Repetitive music/mantra
Automatic writing/journaling
Interfaithism
Universalism
Female deities
Astrology
Auras/personal prophecy
Portents/signs
Postmodernism/Relativism
Feelings based discernment
Other false doctrines such as disdain for the Rapture and Second Coming, a low view of the Bible and high view of new revelation, a vilification of the Church and mission, a disdain for the Gospel which includes teaching on hell and judgment, and a putting down of Christ’s death on the cross.

For a further treatment of this subject, go to: http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/newageinthechurch.html

Here is a summary of some of the specific false teachings of Allelon:

The word Greek word allelon as used by Allelon is not referring to the “one another” or allying of Christians for the sake of the world but it is referring specifically to unity of the Faith within the body of Christ. Allelon states that “Everything in the life of the church is done allelon for the sake of the world.” Yet the word allelon is about unity in the Spirit and in the Faith within the Church context. We are not to be in unity with the world, nor are we to dialog with them in order to come to consensus. We are to live and preach the truth of the Gospel. So their whole premise in the name of the organization is not biblically correct.
Theology, Greek, Hebrew and Church history should not be taught through the lens of the EC missional paradigm, but through the lens of Scripture and the facts presented there.
EC’s “painting the God picture very big” is evidencing itself in Universalism, Interfaithism and an erroneous view that God has always had a way for the Gentiles to be reconciled to God apart from the preaching of the Gospel.
If leaders in the EC state that missional theology is not sure of its plan and is ambiguous and full of confusion, why would anyone subscribe to it? Why then are they bringing this missional stuff into all the churches with such certainty?
Mission and church work are routinely vilified and deemed ineffective, if not detrimental, to Christian outreach. Yet most of the EC leadership who are using this as a diaprax are liberals who have slipped into, especially, evangelical churches when the church leadership who are supposed to be watchmen were asleep at the gates.
Brian McLaren, who is on the advisory board of Allelon, is no longer concerned about preaching the Gospel but about changing the maps of Christianity. But when you sideline the Gospel you sideline any way of reaching this generation.
Allelon’s stated mission is to restore the whole of creation. God’s Son will restore the creation at His second coming. We are to preach the Gospel and live it out in order that people will repent, believe and have a new creation created in them. Today the world is under the control of the evil one, and the offer of Satan to Christ at His temptation, giving Him all the kingdoms of the world if He would bow down and worship the devil, was a real one. We are at war against principalities and powers in this time and space. God’s Kingdom is being established in the hearts of men, not in the world. The world today is under the dominion of the evil one (1 John 5:19). Allelon is teaching the false doctrine of Dominionism.
Allelon claims the maps of Christianity need to be changed. If this “map” is referring to the Bible this is a denial of one of the core doctrines of the Faith, that is the inerrancy and complete sufficiency and authority of the written Word of God. If this “map” is referring to plans to reach the unreached, then the Bible is sufficient to teach us how to do that. If the maps need to be changed due to cultural changes, then Allelon needs to stop looking at reality through the map of modern culture and read the Bible with regards to the right way to preach the Gospel and teach sound doctrine and relate to every issue of life. Christians should not relate to postmodernism by becoming a postmodern or re-imaging the Church, the Bible and Jesus Christ to look postmodern. They should read their Bibles to realize postmodernism is not a new way of thinking at all (Judges 17:6). It is a rebellious, terribly erroneous way of thinking and needs to be roundly rebuked and rejected by any true believer. We need to teach sound doctrine in order that God may change people’s belief systems (Rom. 12:2). Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. This needs to be lived out and taught to unbelievers. When we become followers of Christ we get a new culture, that which is taught by the foundational Apostles and Jesus Christ.
When Roxburgh and Allelon claim: “God is constantly present in places where no one would logically expect God’s future to emerge and yet it does over and over” they purposely forget or are willfully ignorant of the fact that God is not present in the sense of the Gospel message or redemption or any real understanding of God until one is sent to tell about these things (Rom. 10:14). The Church has to be present for God to be present in that sense. Yes, God is omnipresent. No, God is not pantheistic nor has He been bringing people to salvation apart from the Good News of His Son (John 14:6).
When Roxburg responds to the question “What is a missional leader” with “I don’t know,” “Does it matter?” and “Who cares?” that pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter. But for an EC leader, whose life is now revolving around defining that very issue, to not know the answer to this question should make people a little frightened to see this flippant attitude and lack of the ability to frame his arguments.
The statement by Roxburgh that that “in times of discontinuous change, equilibrium is death" is backwards. We need an anchor, a solid rock in changing times, not a drifting anchor without a rope.
The statement by Roxburgh that preaching the Gospel to people and asking for a commitment is no longer the case that fits our modern world is backwards. Christ asks us to understand and believe the Gospel and make a commitment to Him upon repentance. That fact will never change as society changes to become subjective. Postmoderns must learn to accept objective truth or else there is no way for them to be saved.
The Mission In Western Culture Project (MWCP) states: “The gospel is not just a matter of personal salvation; rather, it is a call to participate in the communal and global purposes of God.”. Of course we are called to serve the Lord in the world, but we are not to be like the world. The Gospel is, first and foremost, all about personal salvation. There is no such thing as salvation of cultures and nations, or global salvation. God is about the business of saving individual people and changing them from the inside out. We are not called to be global Christians, only Christians who will be salt and light wherever the Lord puts us. We need to be obedient to Him, not to some global apostolic programs that have never worked. We are not here to change the world, only stand for truth and let God change people.
The Mission In Western Culture Project states: “the message of Jesus is the breaking-in of God’s Kingdom reign into the world”. God will “break in His Kingdom”, so to speak, when He comes. Till then we live in an age of devolution into evil, the church falling away into apostasy (2 Thes. 2:3), and the coming short-lived reign of the AntiChrist (1 John 2:18). This world is still in the domain of the evil one (Matt. 4:8-9, Eph. 2:2, John 16:11, Eph. 6:12) and Christians had better stop listening to Dominionists on this subject or else they will end up holding lamps without oil and will be surprised by the coming of the bridegroom.
Allelon is another praxis of the EC and its teachings. Since they recommend books by the leadership of the EC, people like Roxburgh have their books endorsed by them, they liberally quote from them, endorse their books and reflect the teachings of the leadership, the false teachings of the EC leadership ALL apply because everyone in the EC is being exposed to them. Here are some quotes by the EC fathers of the movement that show where they are coming from:

Spirituality refers first of all to the universal gift of aliveness that exists within all religions and outside of religions. (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, pg. 253)

A surprisingly central feature of all the world’s religions is the language of light in communicating the divine and symbolizing the union of the human with the divine: Muhammed’s light-filled cave, Moses’ burning bush, Paul’s blinding light, Fox’s “inner light,” Krishna’s Lord of Light, Böhme’s light-filled cobbler shop, Plotinus’ fire experiences, Bodhisattvas with the flow of Kundalini’s fire erupting from their fontanelles, and so on. Light is the common thread that ties together near-death experiences as they occur in various cultures. (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, pg. 146)

… A New Light movement of 'world-making' faith have helped to create the world that is to, and may yet, be. Then, and only then, will earthlings have uncovered the meaning of these words, some of the last words poet/activist/contemplative/bridge between East and West Thomas Merton uttered: "We are already one. But we imagine that we are not. And what we have to recover is our original unity." (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, pg. 10)
"Fourth, New Light embodiment means to be 'in connection' and 'information' with other faiths. To be in-formation means to know each other’s songs almost as well as one knows them oneself, and to enlarge the community to include those whose conceptions of God differ from ours in form. To be in connection means to be able to sing, not only selected stanzas, but all the verses" … "One can be a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ without denying the flickers of the sacred in followers of Yahweh, or Kali, or Krishna. A globalization of evangelism 'in connection' with others, and a globally 'in-formed' gospel, is capable of talking across the fence with Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Muslim--people from other so called 'new' religious traditions ('new' only to us)--without assumption of superiority and power."(Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, p. 129-130)

ALAN JONES (Author of Reimagining Christianity) "The Church's fixation on the death of Jesus as the universal saving act must end, and the place of the cross must be reimagined in Christian faith. Why? Because of the cult of suffering and the vindictive God behind it" (Alan Jones, Reimaging Christianity, p. 132).

“Universalism is not as bankrupt of biblical support as some suggest,” (Brian McLaren, The Last Word and the Word After That, ( San Francisco: Jossey-Bass, 2003), pp. 103 (cf. pp. 182-183)

“It may be advisable in many (not all!) circumstances to help people become followers of Jesus and remain within their Buddhist, Hindu, or Jewish contexts,"… "Is our religion the only one that understands the true meaning of life? Or does God place his truth in others too? ... The gospel is not our gospel, but the gospel of the kingdom of God, and what belongs to the kingdom of God cannot be hijacked by Christianity" (p. 194). (Brian McLaren, An Emergent Manifesto, Baker Books, referenced http://simplyagape.blogspot.com/2007_06_01_archive.html)

"I don't think we've got the gospel right yet. What does it mean to be 'saved'?.... I don't think the liberals have it right. But I don't think we have it right either. None of us has arrived at orthodoxy."––Brian McLaren, The Emergent Mystique, Christianity Today, 2004

"I must add, though, that I don't believe making disciples must equal making adherents to the Christian religion.”---Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 260

The phrase ‘the Second Coming of Christ’ never actually appears in the Bible. Whether or not the doctrine to which the phrase refers deserves rethinking, a popular abuse of it certainly needs to be named and rejected. (McLaren, Everything Must Change, Jesus, Global Crises, and a Revolution of Hope (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 2007), pg. 144.)

And yet, all the time I could feel myself drifting toward acceptance that gay persons are fully human persons and should be afforded all of the cultural and ecclesial benefits that I am. (”Aha!” my critics will laugh derisively, “I knew he and his ilk were on a continuous leftward slide!”) … In any case, I now believe that GLBTQ can live lives in accord with biblical Christianity (at least as much as any of us can!) and that their monogamy can and should be sanctioned and blessed by church and state. (Tony Jones, Same Sex Marriage Blogalogue: How I Went from There to Here, Online source, bold theirs)

If you have not read this you should

2008-12-22T10:44:00.001-05:00

Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy
with Exposition

Background

The "Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy" was produced at an international Summit Conference of evangelical leaders, held at the Hyatt Regency O'Hare in Chicago in the fall of 1978. This congress was sponsored by the International Council on Biblical Inerrancy. The Chicago Statement was signed by nearly 300 noted evangelical scholars, including James Boice, Norman L. Geisler, John Gerstner, Carl F. H. Henry, Kenneth Kantzer, Harold Lindsell, John Warwick Montgomery, Roger Nicole, J. I. Packer, Robert Preus, Earl Radmacher, Francis Schaeffer, R. C. Sproul, and John Wenham.
The ICBI disbanded in 1988 after producing three major statements: one on biblical inerrancy in 1978, one on biblical hermeneutics in 1982, and one on biblical application in 1986. The following text, containing the "Preface" by the ICBI draft committee, plus the "Short Statement," "Articles of Affirmation and Denial," and an accompanying "Exposition," was published in toto by Carl F. H. Henry in God, Revelation And Authority, vol. 4 (Waco, Tx.: Word Books, 1979), on pp. 211-219. The nineteen Articles of Affirmation and Denial, with a brief introduction, also appear in A General Introduction to the Bible, by Norman L. Geisler and William E. Nix (Chicago: Moody Press, rev. 1986), at pp. 181-185. An official commentary on these articles was written by R. C. Sproul in Explaining Inerrancy: A Commentary (Oakland, Calif.: ICBI, 1980), and Norman Geisler edited the major addresses from the 1978 conference, in Inerrancy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1980).
Clarification of some of the language used in this Statement may be found in the 1982 Chicago Statement on Biblical Hermeneutics
The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy

Preface

The authority of Scripture is a key issue for the Christian church in this and every age. Those who profess faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are called to show the reality of their discipleship by humbly and faithfully obeying God's written Word. To stray from Scripture in faith or conduct is disloyalty to our Master. Recognition of the total truth and trustworthiness of Holy Scripture is essential to a full grasp and adequate confession of its authority.
The following Statement affirms this inerrancy of Scripture afresh, making clear our understanding of it and warning against its denial. We are persuaded that to deny it is to set aside the witness of Jesus Christ and of the Holy Spirit and to refuse that submission to the claims of God's own Word which marks true Christian faith. We see it as our timely duty to make this affirmation in the face of current lapses from the truth of inerrancy among our fellow Christians and misunderstandings of this doctrine in the world at large.
This Statement consists of three parts: a Summary Statement, Articles of Affirmation and Denial, and an accompanying Exposition. It has been prepared in the course of a three-day consultation in Chicago. Those who have signed the Summary Statement and the Articles wish to affirm their own conviction as to the inerrancy of Scripture and to encourage and challenge one another and all Christians to growing appreciation and understanding of this doctrine. We acknowledge the limitations of a document prepared in a brief, intensive conference and do not propose that this Statement be given creedal weight. Yet we rejoice in the deepening of our own convictions through our discussions together, and we pray that the Statement we have signed may be used to the glory of our God toward a new reformation of the Church in its faith, life, and mission.
We offer this Statement in a spirit, not of contention, but of humility and love, which we purpose by God's grace to maintain in any future dialogue arising out of what we have said. We gladly acknowledge that many who deny the inerrancy of Scripture do not display the consequences of this denial in the rest of their belief and behavior, and we are conscious that we who confess this doctrine often deny it in life by failing to bring our thoughts and deeds, our traditions and habits, into true subjection to the divine Word.
We invite response to this statement from any who see reason to amend its affirmations about Scripture by the light of Scripture itself, under whose infallible authority we stand as we speak. We claim no personal infallibility for the witness we bear, and for any help which enables us to strengthen this testimony to God's Word we shall be grateful.
— The Draft Committee

A Short Statement

1. God, who is Himself Truth and speaks truth only, has inspired Holy Scripture in order thereby to reveal Himself to lost mankind through Jesus Christ as Creator and Lord, Redeemer and Judge. Holy Scripture is God's witness to Himself.
2. Holy Scripture, being God's own Word, written by men prepared and superintended by His Spirit, is of infallible divine authority in all matters upon which it touches: it is to be believed, as God's instruction, in all that it affirms: obeyed, as God's command, in all that it requires; embraced, as God's pledge, in all that it promises.
3. The Holy Spirit, Scripture's divine Author, both authenticates it to us by His inward witness and opens our minds to understand its meaning.
4. Being wholly and verbally God-given, Scripture is without error or fault in all its teaching, no less in what it states about God's acts in creation, about the events of world history, and about its own literary origins under God, than in its witness to God's saving grace in individual lives.
5. The authority of Scripture is inescapably impaired if this total divine inerrancy is in any way limited or disregarded, or made relative to a view of truth contrary to the Bible's own; and such lapses bring serious loss to both the individual and the Church.

Articles of Affirmation and Denial

Article I.

WE AFFIRM that the Holy Scriptures are to be received as the authoritative Word of God.
WE DENY that the Scriptures receive their authority from the Church, tradition, or any other human source.
Article II.

WE AFFIRM that the Scriptures are the supreme written norm by which God binds the conscience, and that the authority of the Church is subordinate to that of Scripture.
WE DENY that Church creeds, councils, or declarations have authority greater than or equal to the authority of the Bible.
Article III.

WE AFFIRM that the written Word in its entirety is revelation given by God.
WE DENY that the Bible is merely a witness to revelation, or only becomes revelation in encounter, or depends on the responses of men for its validity.
Article IV.

WE AFFIRM that God who made mankind in His image has used language as a means of revelation.
WE DENY that human language is so limited by our creatureliness that it is rendered inadequate as a vehicle for divine revelation. We further deny that the corruption of human culture and language through sin has thwarted God's work of inspiration.
Article V.

WE AFFIRM that God's revelation within the Holy Scriptures was progressive.
WE DENY that later revelation, which may fulfill earlier revelation, ever corrects or contradicts it. We further deny that any normative revelation has been given since the completion of the New Testament writings.
Article VI.

WE AFFIRM that the whole of Scripture and all its parts, down to the very words of the original, were given by divine inspiration.
WE DENY that the inspiration of Scripture can rightly be affirmed of the whole without the parts, or of some parts but not the whole.
Article VII.

WE AFFIRM that inspiration was the work in which God by His Spirit, through human writers, gave us His Word. The origin of Scripture is divine. The mode of divine inspiration remains largely a mystery to us.
WE DENY that inspiration can be reduced to human insight, or to heightened states of consciousness of any kind.
Article VIII.

WE AFFIRM that God in His work of inspiration utilized the distinctive personalities and literary styles of the writers whom He had chosen and prepared.
WE DENY that God, in causing these writers to use the very words that He chose, overrode their personalities.
Article IX.

WE AFFIRM that inspiration, though not conferring omniscience, guaranteed true and trustworthy utterance on all matters of which the Biblical authors were moved to speak and write.
WE DENY that the finitude or fallenness of these writers, by necessity or otherwise, introduced distortion or falsehood into God's Word.
Article X.

WE AFFIRM that inspiration, strictly speaking, applies only to the autographic text of Scripture, which in the providence of God can be ascertained from available manuscripts with great accuracy. We further affirm that copies and translations of Scripture are the Word of God to the extent that they faithfully represent the original.
WE DENY that any essential element of the Christian faith is affected by the absence of the autographs. We further deny that this absence renders the assertion of Biblical inerrancy invalid or irrelevant.
Article XI.

WE AFFIRM that Scripture, having been given by divine inspiration, is infallible, so that, far from misleading us, it is true and reliable in all the matters it addresses.
WE DENY that it is possible for the Bible to be at the same time infallible and errant in its assertions. Infallibility and inerrancy may be distinguished, but not separated.
Article XII.

WE AFFIRM that Scripture in its entirety is inerrant, being free from all falsehood, fraud, or deceit.
WE DENY that Biblical infallibility and inerrancy are limited to spiritual, religious, or redemptive themes, exclusive of assertions in the fields of history and science. We further deny that scientific hypotheses about earth history may properly be used to overturn the teaching of Scripture on creation and the flood.
Article XIII.

WE AFFIRM the propriety of using inerrancy as a theological term with reference to the complete truthfulness of Scripture.
WE DENY that it is proper to evaluate Scripture according to standards of truth and error that are alien to its usage or purpose. We further deny that inerrancy is negated by Biblical phenomena such as a lack of modern technical precision, irregularities of grammar or spelling, observational descriptions of nature, the reporting of falsehoods, the use of hyperbole and round numbers, the topical arrangement of material, variant selections of material in parallel accounts, or the use of free citations.
Article XIV.

WE AFFIRM the unity and internal consistency of Scripture.
WE DENY that alleged errors and discrepancies that have not yet been resolved vitiate the truth claims of the Bible.
Article XV.

WE AFFIRM that the doctrine of inerrancy is grounded in the teaching of the Bible about inspiration.
WE DENY that Jesus' teaching about Scripture may be dismissed by appeals to accommodation or to any natural limitation of His humanity.
Article XVI.

WE AFFIRM that the doctrine of inerrancy has been integral to the Church's faith throughout its history.
WE DENY that inerrancy is a doctrine invented by scholastic Protestantism, or is a reactionary position postulated in response to negative higher criticism.
Article XVII.

WE AFFIRM that the Holy Spirit bears witness to the Scriptures, assuring believers of the truthfulness of God's written Word.
WE DENY that this witness of the Holy Spirit operates in isolation from or against Scripture.
Article XVIII.

WE AFFIRM that the text of Scripture is to be interpreted by grammatico-historical exegesis, taking account of its literary forms and devices, and that Scripture is to interpret Scripture.
WE DENY the legitimacy of any treatment of the text or quest for sources lying behind it that leads to relativizing, dehistoricizing, or discounting its teaching, or rejecting its claims to authorship.
Article XIX.

WE AFFIRM that a confession of the full authority, infallibility, and inerrancy of Scripture is vital to a sound understanding of the whole of the Christian faith. We further affirm that such confession should lead to increasing conformity to the image of Christ.
WE DENY that such confession is necessary for salvation. However, we further deny that inerrancy can be rejected without grave consequences, both to the individual and to the Church.

Exposition

Our understanding of the doctrine of inerrancy must be set in the context of the broader teachings of the Scripture concerning itself. This exposition gives an account of the outline of doctrine from which our summary statement and articles are drawn.
Creation, Revelation and Inspiration

The Triune God, who formed all things by his creative utterances and governs all things by His Word of decree, made mankind in His own image for a life of communion with Himself, on the model of the eternal fellowship of loving communication within the Godhead. As God's image-bearer, man was to hear God's Word addressed to him and to respond in the joy of adoring obedience. Over and above God's self-disclosure in the created order and the sequence of events within it, human beings from Adam on have received verbal messages from Him, either directly, as stated in Scripture, or indirectly in the form of part or all of Scripture itself.
When Adam fell, the Creator did not abandon mankind to final judgment but promised salvation and began to reveal Himself as Redeemer in a sequence of historical events centering on Abraham's family and culminating in the life, death, resurrection, present heavenly ministry, and promised return of Jesus Christ. Within this frame God has from time to time spoken specific words of judgment and mercy, promise and command, to sinful human beings so drawing them into a covenant relation of mutual commitment between Him and them in which He blesses them with gifts of grace and they bless Him in responsive adoration. Moses, whom God used as mediator to carry His words to His people at the time of the Exodus, stands at the head of a long line of prophets in whose mouths and writings God put His words for delivery to Israel. God's purpose in this succession of messages was to maintain His covenant by causing His people to know His Name—that is, His nature—and His will both of precept and purpose in the present and for the future. This line of prophetic spokesmen from God came to completion in Jesus Christ, God's incarnate Word, who was Himself a prophet—more than a prophet, but not less—and in the apostles and prophets of the first Christian generation. When God's final and climactic message, His word to the world concerning Jesus Christ, had been spoken and elucidated by those in the apostolic circle, the sequence of revealed messages ceased. Henceforth the Church was to live and know God by what He had already said, and said for all time.
At Sinai God wrote the terms of His covenant on tables of stone, as His enduring witness and for lasting accessibility, and throughout the period of prophetic and apostolic revelation He prompted men to write the messages given to and through them, along with celebratory records of His dealings with His people, plus moral reflections on covenant life and forms of praise and prayer for covenant mercy. The theological reality of inspiration in the producing of Biblical documents corresponds to that of spoken prophecies: although the human writers' personalities were expressed in what they wrote, the words were divinely constituted. Thus, what Scripture says, God says; its authority is His authority, for He is its ultimate Author, having given it through the minds and words of chosen and prepared men who in freedom and faithfulness "spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit" (1 Pet. 1:21). Holy Scripture must be acknowledged as the Word of God by virtue of its divine origin.
Authority: Christ and the Bible

Jesus Christ, the Son of God who is the Word made flesh, our Prophet, Priest, and King, is the ultimate Mediator of God's communication to man, as He is of all God's gifts of grace. The revelation He gave was more than verbal; He revealed the Father by His presence and His deeds as well. Yet His words were crucially important; for He was God, He spoke from the Father, and His words will judge all men at the last day.
As the prophesied Messiah, Jesus Christ is the central theme of Scripture. The Old Testament looked ahead to Him; the New Testament looks back to His first coming and on to His second. Canonical Scripture is the divinely inspired and therefore normative witness to Christ. No hermeneutic, therefore, of which the historical Christ is not the focal point is acceptable. Holy Scripture must be treated as what it essentially is—the witness of the Father to the Incarnate Son.
It appears that the Old Testament canon had been fixed by the time of Jesus. The New Testament canon is likewise now closed inasmuch as no new apostolic witness to the historical Christ can now be borne. No new revelation (as distinct from Spirit-given understanding of existing revelation) will be given until Christ comes again. The canon was created in principle by divine inspiration. The Church's part was to discern the canon which God had created, not to devise one of its own.
The word canon, signifying a rule or standard, is a pointer to authority, which means the right to rule and control. Authority in Christianity belongs to God in His revelation, which means, on the one hand, Jesus Christ, the living Word, and, on the other hand, Holy Scripture, the written Word. But the authority of Christ and that of Scripture are one. As our Prophet, Christ testified that Scripture cannot be broken. As our Priest and King, He devoted His earthly life to fulfilling the law and the prophets, even dying in obedience to the words of Messianic prophecy. Thus, as He saw Scripture attesting Him and His authority, so by His own submission to Scripture He attested its authority. As He bowed to His Father's instruction given in His Bible (our Old Testament), so He requires His disciples to do—not, however, in isolation but in conjunction with the apostolic witness to Himself which He undertook to inspire by His gift of the Holy Spirit. So Christians show themselves faithful servants of their Lord by bowing to the divine instruction given in the prophetic and apostolic writings which together make up our Bible.
By authenticating each other's authority, Christ and Scripture coalesce into a single fount of authority. The Biblically-interpreted Christ and the Christ-centered, Christ-proclaiming Bible are from this standpoint one. As from the fact of inspiration we infer that what Scripture says, God says, so from the revealed relation between Jesus Christ and Scripture we may equally declare that what Scripture says, Christ says.
Infallibility, Inerrancy, Interpretation

Holy Scripture, as the inspired Word of God witnessing authoritatively to Jesus Christ, may properly be called infallible and inerrant. These negative terms have a special value, for they explicitly safeguard crucial positive truths.
lnfallible signifies the quality of neither misleading nor being misled and so safeguards in categorical terms the truth that Holy Scripture is a sure, safe, and reliable rule and guide in all matters.
Similarly, inerrant signifies the quality of being free from all falsehood or mistake and so safeguards the truth that Holy Scripture is entirely true and trustworthy in all its assertions.
We affirm that canonical Scripture should always be interpreted on the basis that it is infallible and inerrant. However, in determining what the God-taught writer is asserting in each passage, we must pay the most careful attention to its claims and character as a human production. In inspiration, God utilized the culture and conventions of His penman's milieu, a milieu that God controls in His sovereign providence; it is misinterpretation to imagine otherwise.
So history must be treated as history, poetry as poetry, hyperbole and metaphor as hyperbole and metaphor, generalization and approximation as what they are, and so forth. Differences between literary conventions in Bible times and in ours must also be observed: since, for instance, non-chronological narration and imprecise citation were conventional and acceptable and violated no expectations in those days, we must not regard these things as faults when we find them in Bible writers. When total precision of a particular kind was not expected nor aimed at, it is no error not to have achieved it. Scripture is inerrant, not in the sense of being absolutely precise by modern standards, but in the sense of making good its claims and achieving that measure of focused truth at which its authors aimed.
The truthfulness of Scripture is not negated by the appearance in it of irregularities of grammar or spelling, phenomenal descriptions of nature, reports of false statements (e.g., the lies of Satan), or seeming discrepancies between one passage and another. It is not right to set the so-called "phenomena" of Scripture against the teaching of Scripture about itself. Apparent inconsistencies should not be ignored. Solution of them, where this can be convincingly achieved, will encourage our faith, and where for the present no convincing solution is at hand we shall significantly honor God by trusting His assurance that His Word is true, despite these appearances, and by maintaining our confidence that one day they will be seen to have been illusions.
Inasmuch as all Scripture is the product of a single divine mind, interpretation must stay within the bounds of the analogy of Scripture and eschew hypotheses that would correct one Biblical passage by another, whether in the name of progressive revelation or of the imperfect enlightenment of the inspired writer's mind.
Although Holy Scripture is nowhere culture-bound in the sense that its teaching lacks universal validity, it is sometimes culturally conditioned by the customs and conventional views of a particular period, so that the application of its principles today calls for a different sort of action.
Skepticism and Criticism

Since the Renaissance, and more particularly since the Enlightenment, world-views have been developed which involve skepticism about basic Christian tenets. Such are the agnosticism which denies that God is knowable, the rationalism which denies that He is incomprehensible, the idealism which denies that He is transcendent, and the existentialism which denies rationality in His relationships with us. When these un- and anti-biblical principles seep into men's theologies at [a] presuppositional level, as today they frequently do, faithful interpretation of Holy Scripture becomes impossible.
Transmission and Translation

Since God has nowhere promised an inerrant transmission of Scripture, it is necessary to affirm that only the autographic text of the original documents was inspired and to maintain the need of textual criticism as a means of detecting any slips that may have crept into the text in the course of its transmission. The verdict of this science, however, is that the Hebrew and Greek text appear to be amazingly well preserved, so that we are amply justified in affirming, with the Westminster Confession, a singular providence of God in this matter and in declaring that the authority of Scripture is in no way jeopardized by the fact that the copies we possess are not entirely error-free.
Similarly, no translation is or can be perfect, and all translations are an additional step away from the autographa. Yet the verdict of linguistic science is that English-speaking Christians, at least, are exceedingly well served in these days with a host of excellent translations and have no cause for hesitating to conclude that the true Word of God is within their reach. Indeed, in view of the frequent repetition in Scripture of the main matters with which it deals and also of the Holy Spirit's constant witness to and through the Word, no serious translation of Holy Scripture will so destroy its meaning as to render it unable to make its reader "wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 3:15).
Inerrancy and Authority

In our affirmation of the authority of Scripture as involving its total truth, we are consciously standing with Christ and His apostles, indeed with the whole Bible and with the main stream of Church history from the first days until very recently. We are concerned at the casual, inadvertent, and seemingly thoughtless way in which a belief of such far-reaching importance has been given up by so many in our day.
We are conscious too that great and grave confusion results from ceasing to maintain the total truth of the Bible whose authority one professes to acknowledge. The result of taking this step is that the Bible which God gave loses its authority, and what has authority instead is a Bible reduced in content according to the demands of one's critical reasonings and in principle reducible still further once one has started. This means that at bottom independent reason now has authority, as opposed to Scriptural teaching. If this is not seen and if for the time being basic evangelical doctrines are still held, persons denying the full truth of Scripture may claim an evangelical identity while methodologically they have moved away from the evangelical principle of knowledge to an unstable subjectivism, and will find it hard not to move further.
We affirm that what Scripture says, God says. May He be glorified. Amen and Amen.

Bible Research > Interpretation > Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy

The Mindset of Mockers in the Last Days

2008-11-11T19:29:00.000-05:00

The Mindset of Mockers in the Last Days

The Bible speaks a lot about scoffers and mockers in the last days, those who question the word because they have departed from the faith.

You can call it a transition- transformation- paradigm shift- or the dialectic process at work: it does not matter what term used is, what matters is that it brings one to new viewpoint that changes their whole perspective. This is what the emergent church’s influence (the “new spirituality”) has on its hearers – changing ones perspective. Certainly there are those who have good intentions that are misconstrued and then there are those who do not have good intentions at all.

Brian McLaren invites and encourages people to rethink the way we tell the Biblical story, and invites us to imagine a new kind of story for our future. McClaren postulates that anyone cannot have hope based on knowing the truth of the gospel; or the hope of knowing anything. What does the Bible say about doubt, its obvious that this state of mind is the opposite of faith.

McLaren In his interview with Christianity Today “I don't think the liberals have it right. But I don't think we have it right either. None of us has arrived at orthodoxy" (The Emergent Mystique, Christianity Today Nov. 2004)

None of us? This means after nearly 2,000 years of church history, scholars and students that have studied and preached is are dismissed on his own opinion. Is his opinion is more important or authoritative than God’s book? Incidentally, his point also includes him, which does put a damper on his contrary statement.

McLaren states, "This God-given thirst for emergence…is causing new forms of Christian spirituality, community, and mission to emerge from modern Western Christianity…a generous orthodoxy is an emerging orthodoxy”

Are new forms of Christianity being developed? Indeed they are – but their source is not from God but from men, those who do not believe in the Word of God. They do not believe the Holy Spirit moved men, the prophets to write, so the Bible does not find its inspiration or origin with God but with man.

Bible believing Christians hold the Bible alone to be the Word of God revealed to men and written by men. Jesus did, and the Apostle Paul wrote, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God…. Not just the red ink portions and not what one feels comfortable with. ALL of it.

Inventing new ways to interpret Scripture discovering new definitions to change words from what they used to mean to be more relative to our modern times is reshaping doctrines by emergent church practices and it is confusing people and ruining their faith.

Leanard Sweet writes: “With the crooked lines of our lives God is wanting to write “a new account of everything old,” a Third Testament. This book has been breathed forth with the prayer that the crooked lines and cracks of New Light ministries, whatever they maybe, will become openings through which God’s light can shine. (p.259 Quantum spirituality.)

This new light certainly is not the light the Bible refers to as the word, for he tell us that his new light is directly influenced by new agers that he quotes profusely throughout his book.

Erwin McManus tells us "The Christian faith grew through story - not text. Only later did the stories become Scripture. While the Scripture must be held in the highest regard, we must not neglect the power of story" (Erwin McManus, "An Unstoppable Force,” p. 118)

God spoke to the prophets and gave them the future – prophecy, are we now going to call these stories? By doing this it diminishes the source and their importance, inferring that they are like any other story, religious or secular. Does McManus think they sat around the campfire telling stories and then voted for it to be written down in a book called the Bible? Or maybe by consensus they thought a story would be good for others to hear. Well some may just as well take this position considering how they put the word of God down.

2 Pet 1:21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”

Many times the “prophets” did not fully understand what God spoke, but they certainly did not make up the words or guess, they had a fear of God to do and write exactly what He communicated.

McManus states “The church must acclimate to a changing world, or she will destine herself to irrelevance or even extinction. …One of those dramatic changes in our environment is the shift from words to images. To do church in a way that is entirely text driven is the kiss of death’ (Erwin McManus, "An Unstoppable Force", p. 18)

That’s an interesting opinion- the apostles taught the very opposite Titus 1:9 “Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught” Rom.16:17-18 “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.”

Paul writes in Titus 3:10 “Reject a divisive (heretic) man after the first and second admonition.” Who is divisive? Those who do not hold to the doctrine in the bible and teach something else as true.

"One of the arts that leaders must craft is the selection of great stories." (Erwin McManus, "An Unstoppable Force, p. 118)

McManus’ makes this plain by his symbol for water, shaped in the symbol of the Yin and Yang, a Chinese symbol associated with Tai Chi, symbolizing opposites and oneness. His mosaic is synthesizing other religious symbols with Christianity. On the website http://theoriginsproject.org five elements are illustrated:

WIND: Commission: Mission is why the church exists: People matter most.
WATER: Community: Love is the context for all mission: Love permeates everything.
WOOD: Connection: Structure must always submit to spirit: Passion fuels action.
FIRE: Communion: Relevance to culture is not optional: Relevance communicates truth.
EARTH: Character: Creativity is a natural result of spirituality. Character creates change.

These five categories (elements) are attached by Christian interpretations which mean nothing. They have no resemblance to the Bible but instead to other religions, Taoism- Yin and Yang, This is neo-Christianity- bringing a synthesis of other religious ideas into the Church which corrupts the doctrine of Christ.

McManus states: “Two thousand years ago, God started a revolt against the religion He started. So don't ever put it past God to cause a groundswell movement against churches and Christian institutions that bear His name.”

Here is a prefect example of teachers that have no basis of history or the Jewish culture Jesus lived in God did not revolted against the Judaism of Moses (whom he inspired and gave directly) , he came against the leaders that added their human traditions and made the word of God of no effect, Exactly what McManus and McLaren and so many others are doing.

This is why McManus can state without equivocation: “My goal is to destroy Christianity as a world religion and be a recatalyst for the movement of Jesus Christ,” (said in a telephone interview) “Some people are upset with me because it sounds like I’m anti-Christian. I think they might be right”

Can these men lead others to trust God by his word when they speak in this manner?

But there are many others that are following in these men's footsteps.

Jon Middendorf is a pastor at Oklahoma City First City of the Nazarene, who oversees the Kaleo Community congregation there. he seems to have absorbed the emergent viewpoint to its full.

Dialogue between Greg Horton Jon Middendorf http://www.wiredparish.com/hosts.php?hid=51

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This conversation, they call dialog begins with him referring to A.J. Jacobs has written a book called ‘the year of living biblically,” Horton: “what he decided to do was to go through those 660 odd laws in the Pentateuch and to start living by them. Greg Horton: “It is study in absurdity…He finally decided if this is biblical and these people actually believe this is biblical, then lets see what happens if you actually live that way.”So it becomes a study of absurd the Mosaic law can be when actually applied.”

Maybe he had a problem because he added 47 laws of his own to the 613 laws of God that he does not believe in. This shows he is arguing against something that is not based on the Bible but his own biased version of the Bible, what he thinks it says. Ask the orthodox Jews that keep the law today, they do not think it is impossible.

Middendorf asks- why did he do this?” Horton: ”I’m guessing to make money” Middendorf: “Did he do it to mock it?” Greg Horton: “Oh yeah, absolutely, he absolutely did it to mock it. … its maybe one of those things that need to be mocked” Horton “The errant literal interpretation of the law and these things? Middendorf Comments “Christians are guilty of the notion that there was a time when people were required to live by the mosaic law, I just don’t know that ever was the case.”

So then God lied, and according to their view you can throw out nearly all the Old Testament, it never happened the way it was written, why trust any of it. Instead we should trust these men who are scoffing and mocking it. This is equivalent to saying in an absolute manner man never used the horse and buggy because I don’t see anyone do this today and I tried to and was unable.

Middendorf comments “Well, I think we try to, I think we do damage to Scripture, I think we force it to read to say what we want it to say, as opposed to, as opposed to the people of God being this historically embodied culturally extended; right; historically –yea, that’s what I mean to say”

Horton: This does address a large percentage of the evangelical church who believe that – y’know Jesus came to die and fulfill the law so we would not have to live by the law…and prior to Jesus you had to live by the law no, (Middendorf-no ) that’s because many of them have this notion and when you get into the whole inerrancy discussion have this notion that Moses took down the words of God” Dictation theory Horton: there's no redaction there's not many changes to it and y’know y if you read -I want to real scholars, but that's not fair because some people who believe this stuff are real scholars

Not only would it not be fair but it would be inaccurate. What they have just done is question Jesus (whom they may claim to believe and follow in) who does say the law came through Moses.

Jesus refers to the book of Moses in various places. Mark 12:26 referring to the resurrection

Matt 19:7 refers to Moses on divorce.

Mark 1:44 show yourself to the priest, and offer for your cleansing those things which Moses commanded, as a testimony to them."

Mark 7:10 "For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother';

Jesus said "Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? John 7:19

So Jesus equates not believing Moses as not believing him, so the questions these men bring up shows that they are in unbelief.

In fact Paul specifically writes a whole book on the law of Moses :

Galatians 3:24 “Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.”

But these men say this is not true!

This is the whole point of the law and why Jesus came Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),

And what do they think James 2:10 is about? “For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.”

Of course I have quoted the Bible of which they question as being accurate. If one cannot refer to the Bible of which they question then why even say anything about Jesus at all, for it is through the Bible he is revealed accurately to us.

The first 5 books of Old Testament claim to have been written by Moses (Ex. 17:14, 24:4,7; 34:27-28; Lev.1-2; Num. 33:2; Deut.1:1-5; 4:4-5; 31:9,24-26). If Moses did not write the Pentateuch, who did? It shows Moses is the author of the books over and over again. God told Moses what to write- Exod. 24:4: “And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD...” God gave revelation to him up on the Mountain. The book of the law written by Moses was handed to the priests, it ends at Deut. 31:23; (except the song and blessing which is Moses' own composition). The rest of the book of Deuteronomy is an appendix obviously added after Moses' death by another's hand.

Exod. 24:12 the LORD said to Moses, "Come up to Me on the mountain and be there; and I will give you tablets of stone, and the law and commandments which I have written, that you may teach them."

Exod. 31:18 He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

Horton: “ I still don’t know how this entire group of Scholars got together for the Chicago statement on inerrancy a lot of really really smart people saying something really really stupid.”

So what You are saying God gave us these absurd laws to follow so that we wouldn’t be able to follow them so that we would need Jesus, how insane is that system”(Middendorf is entertained by his cleverness laughing along with his mockery). Middendorf: Well that’s the particular view of the atonement” Horton:“Oh I know it is” Its also a particular view of humanity, in terms of, moral depravity and original sin and all that” Middendorf: “no, I agree I just, I’m just amazed…”

Maybe it is he that does not understand how ignorant he sounds? The law is given to show us the holiness of God and what is required to not sin.

This echoes other Emergent’s. In Rob Bell’s Velvet Elvis, he tells us that the Bible is a “human product... rather than the product of divine fiat.” (Quote inChristianity Today, November, 2004, p. 38.)

Again you cannot believe Jesus if you do not believe Moses- he refers to Moses numerous times

John 7:19 "Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law?

And no truer words were spoken " there is one who accuses you-- Moses, in whom you trust. "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" (John 5:45-6:1)

If the Bible is not your spiritual and moral authority then you do not have God as master over your life or in your life. Then you are your own authority- self is master and you will live by your own opinions.

Jesus said in Luke 11:28: “blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

If we are not conducting our spirituality from “The Word” but from other ways we are not living the Christian life. We cannot mix opinions with Christ’s teachings. Jesus said, “The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”

Middendorf says this is a particular view of atonement and depravity- original sin

I think what these men are saying proves their state of sinfulness, these men are truculent and Jude addresses people like this.

Mittnedorf- “and so we rob the story of its transformational power by Idolizing the words instead of the testimony”

They do not care what the Bible instructs, showing their unbelief and disrespect in the word which is God’s testimony to man. And whose testimony would they would like us to idolize? We are to respect Gods word, He did communicate truth to us and it is preserved to all generations. If you do not believe this – don’t call yourself a believer or a Christian because YOU ARE NOT!

The Bible is called “the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15), Daniel called it “the Scripture of Truth” (Dan.10:21), Psalm 119:160 “The entirety of Your word is truth.” Prov.30:5 “Every word of God is pure.” Psalm 138:2 states that His Word is exalted above His name. God honors His Word in greater ways than He honors His own name.

Horton mentions his own senior pastor jumped up and down on the Bible, “look this is not, this is not, an I. were not going to worship this, in fact this is what he said were not going to worship this to make this some sort of an idol it would be just as wrong to making a golden calf an idol.” This is the testimony, this is actually mans testimony about God and we believe the Holy Spirit has been involved in it… but don’t make the mistake of etching this out of gold.”

God said his word is more precious than what is in the world and it produces faith in Him.

1Peter 1:7: “that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes”

Where is faith found? In his WORD. Rom. 10:17 “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Proverbs 3:13-16: “Happy is the man who finds wisdom, and the man who gains understanding; For her proceeds are better than the profits of silver, and her gain than fine gold. She is more precious than rubies, and all the things you may desire cannot compare with her. Length of days is in her right hand, in her left hand riches and honor.”

Jesus said in John 17:17: "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.”

2 Pet 1:4 We have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises- Where is this found? In the word.

1 Pet 2:7 “Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious”

These men are prophesied in the Bible that they do want not to believe is accurate?

Middendorf commenting on the presidential forum and being asked a question on the Bible “I’m not sure that you are supposed to believe every word of the Bible.”

Of course not, you can pick and choose what you want to believe as longs it’s not all of it.

These men do not understand how God used men to write his word to communicate to man. Jesus said unless one understands the word they cannot bear fruit for his kingdom (Mt.13).

Horton- “The problem is that there are people who really believe the Bible is both, is somehow holds authority over them, based on the words that are written down on the page and its like; I don’t even know how you function – there is no way you can make a synthesis of everything Scripture says as this kind of living document that would have authority over your life.”

Spoken like a man who has no relationship with the God of Scripture, a man who does not believe what Jesus said.

2 Pet 3:3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts”

Jude 1:17-19 “But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.”

Here are just a few statements about scoffers and how they react when they are shown their waywardness.

Prov 9:8: “Do not correct a scoffer, lest he hate you; rebuke a wise man, and he will love you.”

Prov. 13:1: “a scoffer does not listen to rebuke.”

Prov. 14:6 ‘A scoffer seeks wisdom and does not find it.”

Prov. 15:12 “A scoffer does not love one who corrects him, nor will he go to the wise”

Middendorf then speaks of “Christ is the lens by which we read all the Scripture.” If this is true then why do you deny what Jesus said- he quoted from the Old Testament to prove what He was saying is true.’ Its hard to believe Middendorf is a senior pastor in this church when their own articles of faith states: “ We believe in the plenary inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, by which we understand the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments, given by divine inspiration, inerrantly revealing the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation, so that whatever is not contained therein is not to be enjoined as an article of faith. (Luke 24:44-47; John 10:35; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; 1 Peter 1:10-12; 2 Peter 1:20-21)

Like Brian McLaren that describes the new kind of Christian as a critic of God and his word. These are those who are willing to ignore history, the manuscript evidence, the prophecies contained in the Old Testament that were fulfilled and still will be fulfilled.

Jesus taught that every part of the Old Testament is inspired and authoritative: the law, the writings, and the Psalms (Lk. 24:44). He taught the men spoken of in the books wrote them, that the Old Testament writers were inspired by God to write the Scriptures. According to the Son of God, Moses wrote the books of the law (Lk. 24:44; Jn. 5:45-47); David wrote the Psalms bearing his name (Lk. 20:42); Daniel wrote the book bearing his name (Mt. 24:15).

Jesus taught that the Old Testament is perfect to the letter (Mt. 5:17-18). It cannot be broken (Jn. 10:35). It is authoritative to every detail. No statement in the Bible can be broken, all will be proven true. This is the doctrine of inerrancy and infallibility.

Jesus taught that the Old Testament is a book written in advance on the coming of Christ (Lk. 24:44). That the Old Testament characters, events, and miracles are true and historical. Some of the Old Testament people and events Christ referred to are: the creation (Mk. 13:19), Adam and Eve (Mt. 19:4-6; Mk. 10:6-7), Cain and Abel (Mt. 23:35; Lk. 11:50-51), Noah and the flood (Mt. 24:37-39), Abraham (Jn. 8:39-40), the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Lk. 17:28-29), Lot's wife turning to salt (Lk. 17:32), Jonah and the whale (Mt. 12:39-41; Lk. 11:29-32), Nineveh repenting at Jonah's preaching (Lk. 11:32), The queen of Sheba visiting Solomon (Lk. 11:31). And Yes -Moses and the burning bush (Mk. 12:26) and his giving the law, Jesus said "Did not Moses give you the law (John 7:19)

These men speak of a testimony- Here’s a testimony –from Moses.

Exodus 34:29: “Now it was so, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the Testimony were in Moses' hand when he came down from the mountain), that Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone while he talked with Him.” (The very laws these men say God did not give Man.)

The ark they built is called the ark of the testimony- why? Because the two tablets that contained the 10 laws were put inside it. All the 613 laws were written down together and put on its side for the priests to have access to them and the sacrifice would be put on its mercy seat. The same glory that Moses reflected on his face showed up on the ark in between the angels on the mercy seat.

Testimony of two or three witnesses.

Ps 119:88-89: “Revive me according to Your lovingkindness, so that I may keep the testimony of Your mouth. Forever, O LORD, your word is settled in heaven.”

Obviously it is not settled in the heart of the scoffers on earth.

Jesus made it clear John 12:48 "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him-- the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.”

John 15:7-8: "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. "By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Matt 24:35: "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Mark 8:38 "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."

What these men said is shameful and ignorant of what the Bible is and who God is, and they are spreading it to others in the church.

Jn.14:23: “If anyone loves me he will keep my word.” This is his commandment to show our devotion. One cannot keep it if they doubt and question its validity. On the other hand in v.24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.”

Since Jesus said His word is the Father’s this becomes an essential to know and have have a relationship to God. if you mock his word as truth you are mocking God. I hope either of this men will come to their senses and faith and stop spreading opinions that is contrary to God.

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Hiding behind a Statement of Faith

2008-09-25T18:42:00.002-04:00

Yesterday I received this comment on another blog which I allowed to post to a recent Lighthouse Trails commentary about Greg Laurie and his recent teaming up with Rick Warren and Ken Blanchard as they launch The New York Leadership Center.
Here is a link to the original article on Lighthouse Trails-
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php?p=1212&more=1&c=1

Don’t believe everything you read. Here is the Statement of Faith from this organization:

OUR TENETS OF FAITH & DOCTRINE

We believe the Bible to be the inspired, the only infallible, authoritative Word of God.
We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return in power and glory.
We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful people, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential. The express mandate of the Church is to fulfill the Great Commission.
We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life.
We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost that they are saved unto the resurrection of life.
We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ."

This is very typical of many undiscerning believers that are in the Body of Christ today. Folks looking at a statement of faith or belief and not being fruit checker's on those involved in a project.

The Bible states in Matt 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them".

Lets look at all the verses that lead up to this verse starting at verse 15.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

This verse shows that they may look like Christians which means they may sound like Christians as well espousing orthodox belief's.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

As discerning Bereans we need to be wise and check their association's and who they gather and group together with.

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Someone who is corrupt and compromised will always bring forth bad fruit in the end

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

If a Christian follows Gods Word and not his own ambitions as well as letting the Holy Spirit guide him/her into all truth you cant help but bring forth good fruit. That all depends on you following Gods will through scripture.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Sooner or later judgement will come on the evil false shepherds that have infiltrated the Body of Christ. And we will know them and who they are as we compare what they do in the light of scripture with The Holy Spirit guiding us.

These days its harder to see the wolves (like Rick Warren) coming because they hide behind espoused orthodox belief's and statements of faith. Do I think they believe what they profess to believe?

Not a chance . I dont believe it because you have to examine Rick Warrens fruit and its bad.(Read all the article's here and other places on Rick Warren his connections and associations)

Ken Blanchard has shown us time after time that he will continue to ignore godly council, repent and turn from his evil ways and continues to endorse new age books and teachers.

We need to of course separate error fro apostasy and heresy.

Calvinism is error. Pretty bad error at that because I believe it misrepresents the God revealed to us in scripture. BUT it does not mean that i will separate from my Calvinist friends of stop reading John MacArthur or Francis Schaffers wonderful books.

Just like I dont argue and fuss about Calvinism because of course man has free will and Jesus did not die for a elect few.

Just a snippet on this and no I will not be drawn into a tulip debate here on this post. I do not need to defend my position on this error. Please do that on your own website's

What God has given to every man is conscience. We are told in the

Bible that after Adam and Eve sinned they knew both good and evil.8 They and their

descendants now had an inward knowledge of right versus wrong. The Bible calls this

conscience, and explains that every person shows the work of the law written in their

hearts, their conscience also bearing witness.9 Conscience literally means with knowledge

or perception.10 Conscience is the moral compass that God has given to every person.

The Holy Spirit’s main ministry to the lost world is to convict each conscience –

revealing to every person his or her need for the Savior. “And when He [the Holy Spirit]

has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.”11 The

Holy Spirit convicts the entire world of sin against God, of Christ’s righteousness, and of

God’s coming judgment.

Scripture also explains that God commands all men everywhere to repent.12 Repent

means to change your mind. When the Holy Spirit convicts each man of his sin, he can

choose to resist the Holy Spirit, or acknowledge his sin. Concerning salvation, this is

where man’s free will is exercised. Throughout the Bible we find many examples of

1 Genesis 1:1; 1 Timothy 6:15; 1 John 3:20; Genesis 17:1

2 Psalm 3:8; 68:20; Jonah 2:9; Revelation 7:10

3 Jeremiah 17:9

4 1 Corinthians 2:14

5 Psalm 19:1-3

6 See also: Romans 10:18; Colossians 1:6, 23; Job 12:7-10; Isaiah 40:21-26; Acts 17:26-30; Revelation

14:6-7; etc.

7 Romans 1:19-20

8 Genesis 3:22

9 Romans 2:15. See also: Job 38:36; Psalm 40:8; Proverbs 1:20-33; Acts 9:5; Romans 1:32; John 8:9; etc.

10 In the New Testament conscience is derived from the Greek word sundeido meaning: to see completely,

to understand or become aware, and to be conscious or informed of: consider, know, be privy, be ware of.

11 John 16:8

12 Acts

source http://www.eternal-productions.org/PDFS/articles/Free%20Will%20or%20Calvinism.pdf

Just like I dont argue about different beliefs on the Rapture or if there is going to be a Rapture before the tribulation period. I personally think we will go through the tribulation but if the pre tribbers have that one right thats great Im not looking for adventure of that sort.

Rick Warren, his followers as well as his associations are bringing in and accommodating that One World religion of the antichrist spoken of in the book of Revelation. It doesnt take a rocket scientist or theologian to figure that out because every day Warren keeps revealing his real intent. I dont think slick Rick is even trying to hide or cover his real intentions because many Christian's are not being discerning and are not reading their Bibles.

You only need to look to scripture to see what Rick promotes does not ad up to scripture.

That started with Warrens book "Purpose Driven Church", continues with "The Purpose Driven Life" and all of Ricks associations.

And actually this all started when Rick sought the council of the unsaved on how to build a church on his way to seeking power and influence in the world.

We all really need to take to heart the following scripture because there will be a time in this time of great deception that there will be no turning back.

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[a] who now restrains will do so until He[b] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So dont be fooled by double minded men like Rick Warren who are unstable in all their ways as they hide behind their statements of faith.

Matt 15:8-9

"8 ‘ These people draw near to Me with their mouth,

And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,

Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.

Blessings

Tim

Todd Friel on heretic Brian Mclaren

2008-09-13T11:13:00.002-04:00

Another great video exposing Brian McLaren who has wormed his way into many denomination most of all the Nazarene denomination who feature this heritic at many of their colleges and seminaries. Enjoy and discern-Blessings Tim

The Emergent Church exposed

2008-09-13T11:02:00.001-04:00

Another great U Tube video from my brother in the Lord Todd Friel enjoy
Blessings Tim

Rob Bell exposed

2008-09-13T10:47:00.006-04:00

My latest focus is going to be on the Emergent Church. This is not a movement of God more so it is a movement that wants to take you away from Gods word in scripture. The Nazarene denomination has been all but overtaken by this false movement. So I am going to focus on the leaders of the Emergent Church (yes there are leaders this movement was and is a very calculated drive of the Leadership Network - more to come on this).
First lets talk about Rob Bell who has infiltrated the church through his Nooma videos. Rob is a great communicator but is he a godly communicator?
I dont believe so.

You want to talk about some screwed up theology you need to look at Rob Bell. Rob has made his way into the homes of many undiscerning Christians.Lets take a look at the very excellent expose of Rob Bells warped view of scripturel and beware.
Here is a video I found on U tube It is a very good expose enjoy-Tim Wirth

The Shameful Social Gospel By T.A. MaMahon

2008-09-03T11:20:00.001-04:00

From my brothers and sisters in Lord from The BEREAN CALL

The Shameful Social Gospel
T. A. McMahon

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth." Romans 1:16

For various reasons, Christians of different sorts have tinkered with "the gospel of Christ" as though it needed adjustments. Not major alterations, most will tell you, but just some minor tweaking here and there. The changes often begin by one's declaring that there is no real change involved, simply a shift in emphasis. Yet, no matter what the rationale may be, the end result is being "ashamed of the gospel of Christ."

To be "ashamed of the gospel" covers a number of attitudes from being totally embarrassed by it to thinking one can improve upon it a bit to make it more acceptable. One example of the former is the recent claim by an Emerging Church author that the teaching regarding Christ's paying the full penalty for the sins of mankind through His substitutionary death on the Cross is irrelevant and viewed as "a form of cosmic child abuse." More subtle examples include trying to make the gospel seem less exclusive, and the "softening" of the consequences from which the gospel saves mankind, such as the wrath of God and the Lake of Fire.

Prevalent among many religious leaders who profess to be evangelical Christians (i.e., Bible-believing Christians) is the promotion of a gospel that is acceptable to, and even admired by, people throughout the world. Today, the most popular form of this is the social gospel.

Although the social gospel is common to many new movements among evangelicals, it is not new to Christendom. It had its modern beginning in the late 1800s, when it developed as a way to address the various conditions in society that caused suffering among the populace. The belief was, and is, that Christianity will attract followers when it demonstrates its love for mankind. This could be best accomplished by helping to alleviate the suffering of humanity caused by poverty, disease, oppressive work conditions, society's injustices, civil rights abuses, etc. Those who fostered this movement also believed that relief from their conditions of misery would improve the moral nature of those so deprived.

Another driving force behind the introduction of the social gospel was the eschatological, or end times, views of those involved. Nearly all were amillennialists or post-millennialists. The former believed that they were living in a (symbolic thousand-year) time period in which Christ was ruling from heaven, Satan was bound, and they were God's workers appointed to bring about a kingdom on earth worthy of Christ. Post-millennialists also believed they were in the Millennium, and their goal was to restore the earth to its Eden-like state in order for Christ to return from Heaven to rule over His earthly kingdom.

The social gospel, in all of its assorted applications, helped to produce some achievements (child labor laws and women's suffrage) that have contributed to the welfare of society. It became the primary gospel of liberal theologians and mainline denominations throughout the 20th century. Although its popularity alternately rose and fell as it ran its course, it was often energized by the combination of religion and liberal politics, e.g., Martin Luther King Jr. and the civil rights movement. Midway through the last century and later, the social gospel influenced developments such as the liberation theology of Roman Catholicism and the socialism of left-leaning evangelical Christians. It is in this present century, however, that the social gospel has gotten its most extensive promotion. Two men, both professing to be evangelicals, have led the way.

George W. Bush began his presidency by instituting the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives. His objective was to provide government funding for local churches, synagogues, mosques, and other religious ministries that were providing a social service to their community. Bush believed that programs run by "people of faith" could be at least as effective as secular organizations in helping the needy, and perhaps more so because of their moral commitment to "love and serve their neighbor." As he prepares to leave office, he has declared that he considers his Faith-Based program to be one of the foremost achievements in his tenure as president. Presidential candidate Barack Obama stated that, should he win the election, he will continue the Faith-Based and Community Initiatives.

Rick Warren, the mega-selling author of The Purpose-Driven Church and The Purpose-Driven Life, has taken the social gospel to where it's never been before: not only worldwide but into the thinking and planning of world leaders. Warren credits business management genius Peter Drucker with the basic concept that he is executing. Drucker believed that the social problems of poverty, disease, hunger, and ignorance were beyond the capability of governments or multinational corporations to solve. To Drucker, the most hopeful solution would be found in the nonprofit sector of society, especially churches, with their hosts of volunteers dedicated to alleviating the social ills of those in their community.

Warren, acknowledging the late Drucker as his mentor for 20 years, certainly learned his lessons. His two Purpose-Driven books, translated into 57 languages and selling a combined 30 million copies, reveal the game plan for what Drucker had envisioned. Warren had local churches implement this vision from his books through his enormously popular 40 Days of Purpose and 40 Days of Community programs. To date, 500,000 churches in 162 nations have become part of his network. They form the basis for his Global P.E.A.C.E. Plan.

What is his P.E.A.C.E. plan? Warren's presentation of the plan to the church is found at www.thepeaceplan.com. On video, he identifies the "giants" of humanity's ills as spiritual emptiness, self-centered leadership, poverty, disease, and illiteracy, which he hopes to eradicate by (P)lanting churches, (E)quipping leaders, (A)ssisting the poor, (C)aring for the sick, and (E)ducating the next generation.

Warren uses the analogy of a three-legged stool to illustrate the best way to slay these giants. Two of the legs are governments and business, which have thus far been ineffective, and, just like a two-legged stool, cannot stand. The third very necessary leg is the church. "There are thousands of villages in the world that have no school, no clinic, no business, no government-but they have a church. What would happen if we could mobilize churches to address those five global giants?" Warren reasons that since there are 2.3 billion Christians worldwide, they could potentially form what President Bush has termed a vast "army of compassion" of "people of faith" such as the world has not yet experienced.

In addition to the Christian version, Warren has an expanded inclusive version of the P.E.A.C.E. plan that has drawn support and praise from political and religious leaders and celebrities worldwide. At the 2008 World Economic Forum, he declared, "The future of the world is not secularism, but religious pluralism...." Referring to the ills besetting the world, he declared, "We cannot solve these problems without involving people of faith and their religious institutions. It isn't going to happen any other way. On this planet there are about 20 million Jews, there are about 600 million Buddhists, there are about 800 million Hindus, there are over 1 billion Muslims, and there are 2.3 billion Christians. If you take people of faith out of the equation, you have ruled out five-sixths of the world. And if we only leave it up to secular people to solve these major problems, it isn't going to happen" (http://www.youtube.com).

To accommodate working with people of all faiths Warren has revised the "P" in his P.E.A.C.E. from "planting evangelical churches" to "(P)romoting reconciliation" and the "E" from "equipping [church] leaders" to "(E)quipping ethical leaders." Warren has elsewhere acknowledged his practical shift to pluralism: "Who's the man of peace in any village-or it might be a woman of peace-who has the most respect?...They don't have to be Christian. In fact, they could be Muslim, but they're open and they're influential, and you work with them to attack the five giants [to which he has added global warming]." He quotes a secular leader who affirms what he's doing: "I get it, Rick. Houses of worship are the distribution centers for all we need to do."

Warren has joined the advisory board of Faith Foundation, established by former British prime minister and recent Roman Catholic convert Tony Blair. The Foundation's goal is to further understanding and cooperation among the six leading faiths: Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, and Jewish. How does the Cross fit into this ecumenical gathering? It doesn't. Critical to achieving that ecumenical goal is the elimination of the problem of exclusive religions, a concern articulated by one of the World Economic Forum panelists: "There are some religious leaders in different religious faiths who, in seeking to affirm their own faith and its authenticity and legitimacy...deny other people their faith with its legitimacy and authenticity. I don't think we can keep going like this without...spawning the kind of hatred we are all here to try and solve. I think it's up to us to hold the clergy's feet to the fire of whatever faith. That we insist that we affirm what is beautiful in our own traditions while at the same time refusing to denigrate other faith traditions by suggesting that they are illegitimate, or consigned to some kind of evil end."

The Bible declares all the religions of the world to be "illegitimate" and "consigned" not to "some kind of evil end" but to their just end. Only belief in the biblical gospel saves humanity: "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name [Jesus Christ] under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved;...He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (Acts 4:12; John 3:36).

The history of the social gospel is, in nearly every case, a sincere attempt by Christians to do those things that they believe will honor God and benefit humanity. In every case, however, the practical working out of "benefiting humanity" has compromised biblical faith and dishonored God. Why is that? God's Word gives no commission to the church to fix the problems of the world. Those who attempt to do so are starting out under a false premise, "...a way which seemeth right unto a man," not God's way. So where can it go from there? "The end thereof are the ways of death," i.e., destruction (Proverbs 14:12). Furthermore, the problems of the world are all symptoms. The root cause is sin.

What percentage of the "people of faith," who comprise all religions and make up five-sixths of the world's population, understand and accept the gospel-the only cure for sin? Or how many of the 2.3 billion "Christians" in the world believe the biblical gospel? The numbers tumble down exponentially. "Yes, but...they are a massive volunteer force and distribution outlet of resources for slaying the giants of world suffering!" What does it profit the billions of "people of faith" who may alleviate some of the world's symptoms yet lose their very souls?

The social gospel is a deadly disease for "people of faith." It reinforces the belief that salvation can be attained by doing good works, putting aside differences for the common good, treating others the way we want to be treated, acting morally, ethically, and sacrificially-and that doing so will endear humans to God. No. These are self-deceptive strivings that spurn God's salvation, deny His perfect standard, and reject His perfect justice. Salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast." In fact, it is "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8,9). Jesus declared Himself to be condemned humanity's only hope for reconciliation with God: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6). There is no other way, because God's perfect justice demanded that the penalty for sin for every human ("for all have sinned"-Romans 3:23) be paid. Only the perfect, sinless God-Man could and did pay that infinite penalty in full by His death upon the Cross. Only faith in Him reconciles a person with God.

The shameful social gospel today not only promotes "another gospel," it helps prepare a kingdom contrary to the teachings of Scripture. "For our conversation [citizenship] is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ" (Philippians 3:20). He will return from heaven (John 14:3) to "rapture," or catch, those who believe in Him (His bride) up into the clouds and take them to heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The kingdom that remains on the earth will be the kingdom of the Antichrist.
Consistent with its amillennial/postmillennial beginnings, the efforts of the social gospel are earthbound in their attempted restoration of the kingdom of God. Eugene Peterson has infiltrated that heresy into his Message Bible: "God didn't go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again" (a perversion of John 3:17).

Rob Bell, in his book Velvet Elvis, reflects the "fix the earth" eschatology of nearly all Emerging Church leaders: "Salvation is the entire universe being brought back into harmony with its maker. This has huge implications for how people present the message of Jesus. Yes, Jesus can come into our hearts. But we can join a movement that is as wide and as big as the universe itself. Rocks and trees and birds and swamps and ecosystems. God's desire is to restore all of it....The goal isn't escaping this world but making this world the kind of place God can come to. And God is remaking us into the kind of people who can do this kind of work."

For Emerging Church leader Brian McLaren, this is the future way of life for the Christian. In an interview July 28, 2008, on ChristianPost.com, he said: "I think our future will also require us to join humbly and charitably with people of other faiths-Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, secularists, and others-in pursuit of peace, environmental stewardship, and justice for all people, things that matter greatly to the heart of God." No, what matters to the "heart of God" is "that all should come to repentance" and believe the gospel.

Anyone who puts his hope in this social gospel, which employs "people of faith" to make "this world the kind of place God can come to," needs to heed the words of Jesus in Luke 18:8: "When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" People of all faiths, yes, but certainly not "the faith," for which Jude exhorts true believers to earnestly contend. Lord, help us all not to be ashamed of Your gospel! TBC

The Abanes Spin Zone

2008-07-27T22:45:00.002-04:00

Its news by now that Saddleback member and apoligist Richard Abanes has had Pastor Ken Silva'a website shut down with legal threats to Ken's ISP I Power. The thing is Abanes has not yet stated what specifically Ken stated in the 3 year old article what was slander and libel. I read the article and saw no such thing there.
Here is more on Richard Abanes and his form of spin.

Attacking Men Of God By Bud Press

2008-07-20T00:44:00.002-04:00

With all of the “attack” accusations flying around, I thought I would post the below article I wrote a few years ago. Hopefully, it will demonstrate that the same accusations are used by the dedicated followers of false prophets and false teachers–in particular the cults and the hyper-heretical Word-Faith Movement.

Attacking Men Of God?

As one who has been involved in an apologetics ministry for years, it sickens me, and I’m sure my colleagues, to be accused of “attacking” the most dangerous and prolific false prophets and false teachers of our day, especially when clear-cut, easy-to-comprehend documentation is provided.

WELCOME TO ATTACKSVILLE, USA:

“Why are you attacking an anointed man of God?!” they ask.

“I’m warning you! Stop attacking this prophet of God!” they warn.

“Who are you to attack the anointed? If he is wrong then God will deal with him, not you!” they ramble.

“Heresy hunter! Heresy hunter! You are on dangerous ground for attacking a child of God!” they yell.

“I’ve never heard him say that. You’re just making that up. You will suffer for your attacks on the servants of the Lord!” they threaten.

And on, and on, and on. Their carbon-copy cries are as a broken record, with nothing more to offer than accusations.

With all of the “attacking” going on, one would think the one exposing the deception had led a hoard of savage Vikings into a church or a crusade to successfully pillage, plunder and vandalize the works of God.

Please, give us a break. Cut us some slack. Chill-out and think.

The Christian gains discernment by studying God’s word. Christians make God’s word their final authority. Do your homework. Read and listen to the evidence, then compare the evidence with the final authority.

When you realize you have followed a false teacher–and have been conditioned to lash-out at those who share the truth in love–swallow your pride and join the battle against deception.

“The wicked man flees though no one pursues, but the righteous are as bold as a lion” (Proverbs 28:1).

In Christ,
Bud Press
(Jude 3)

Bud Press On Truth and Richard Abanes

2008-07-20T00:21:00.003-04:00

Dear Tim:

This post is for the benefit of your readers who are interested in truth. Although this post does not reveal the entire story, it may very well develop into an informative article in the future.

There are truths and there are lies, and it is up to us to discern the difference between the two. When faced with truth we have a choice: deny it, compromise, and make excuses, or accept it–regardless of personal agendas, personal feelings, or personal ties.

Indeed, solid, irrefutable documentation stands on its own and cannot be denied. Documentation displaces ad hominem, innuendo, and off-the-cuff statements. It also provides people with the other side of the story and allows them to “test” and think on their own, as opposed to accepting someone’s word.

People deserve truth at all times, even if it hurts, for it is truth that sets people free.

This year, I spent a considerable amount of time carefully reviewing and preserving the articles on Richard Abanes’ website, specifically those that dealt with Ken Blanchard and his involvement with and participation in the New Age Movement. I have also monitored and preserved Abanes’ movements on numerous internet blogs and elsewhere.

Later, I felt led to contact Abanes and provide information on Ken Blanchard that he may not have been aware of. Despite his treatment of myself and others, and despite Ken Blanchard’s strong ties with Rick Warren, I gave Abanes the benefit of the doubt and reached out to him in love.

During an exchange of e-mails, Abanes requested updated information on Ken Blanchard, to which I gladly provided. On numerous occasions, Abanes gave his word to issue a public statement on Ken Blanchard, and even went so far to say he would privately inform his pastor, Rick Warren.

But as of this writing, Richard Abanes has not kept his word, and has even gone so far as to help me with the following “tantalizing conspiratorial scenario” on Ken Blanchard:

“Ken Blanchard, who is really my Uncle Kenny, called and pleaded with me to not expose his true New Age agenda, which is to teach the church how to Lead Like A New Age Jesus. And to bribe me, he deposited $30 million into a Swiss Bank account with the last 3 numbers being 666. I told him that this would be acceptable, and that I’d never say anything negative about his book endorsements or associations with new Agers as long as I not only got the cash, but also was promoted to the Regional Director of the Illuminati, complete with my own special ‘I’ embroidered blazer, a coat of arms pin, and a direct special hot phone line to the Vatican” (CRN.Info blog, June 6, 2008 at 10:32am, http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2008/06/04/oh-the-propaganda/ ).

This is disturbing. Equally disturbing is that in the same post Abanes accused me of harassment, and stated in part that:

“I told you that I’d get to Ken Blanchard and make my report when possible, given my responsibilities. I’ve already begun the research, and have even posted a caution about him to persons visiting my website.”

But again, as of this writing, Richard Abanes has not kept his word. And, because of the strong ties between Ken Blanchard and Rick Warren, I will be surprised if Abanes keeps his word on this issue at all.

My first letter to Richard Abanes was on March 11, 2008–over 4 months ago! During our exchange of e-mails I granted Abanes permission to link to my articles on Ken Blanchard and post my e-mails on his website. I have nothing to hide, and would like to see Abanes post ALL of our correspondence on his website and blogs, in their entirety, for the world to see.

Richard Abanes reached out to me and asked for updates on Ken Blanchard. But behind-the-scenes, he reached out to his constituency with something entirely different.

For example, one of Richard Abanes’ excuses for not dealing with the Ken Blanchard issue was the responsibilities with his new book. But since my first letter to him on March 11, those responsibilities didn’t stop Abanes from spending an incredible amount of time posting lengthy messages in various blogs and dealing with New Agers on “YouTube.” Many of his blog posts had nothing to do with his new book.

I knew exactly when Abanes’ part in the book was finished. I talked to his editor.

Speaking of blog posts, in the Phoenix Preacher blog on April 17, 2008, a poster named “Dusty” asked the question, “Anyone heard of Christian Research Service?” Yet, despite the fact that Abanes had requested updates from me on Ken Blanchard, he stated to Dusty with the following:

Richard Abanes
April 17th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Dusty: Anyone heard of Christian Research Service?
RA: Yes. Bad. False. Slander. Sensationalistic. Knee-jerk. A guy named Bud Press. I am pretty much a heretic, iar, and compromiser to them.
[ http://phoenixpreacher.com/cms/?p=2833 ]

One minute later in the same blog, Abanes stated:

Richard Abanes
April 17th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
I’ve tried to take civilly with Bud Press, but he will have none of it. He is one of the people whose thoughts about me are echoed in the above list I posted of accusations that have ben made against me this year. [Ibid.]

Again, in the same blog at 8;27 pm, Richard Abanes stated:

“ROFL. Yeah, it’s called truth. Oh, and I actually get along very very well with the REAL discernment folk out there. Lots of very good ministries that have nothing to do with these Bud Press types.”

On April 29, 2008, Richard Abanes wrote me a “DO NOT CONTACT ME AGAIN” e-mail, then turned around on May 10 and requested additional information on Ken Blanchard and asked me to “Please send it again.”

Needless to say, all Abanes had to do was go to the “Ken Blanchard/Lead Like Jesus?” page of my website and find the information I had provided to him in the first place.

But here we are now, Tim, months later, and Abanes is still ranting and raving about all the “lies/slander” being spread about him. Sadly, he is too spiritually blinded to see that he is his own worst enemy. It is he who has destroyed his reputation and integrity, and it is we who have nothing to fear from him or others like him.

With dedicated vengeance, Richard Abanes has waged a battle and attempted to destroy many solid, Bible-based ministries. But he is fighting a loosing battle.

Many of those I have spoken to within the apologetics and cult-evangelism communities have had their own encounters with Richard Abanes. They all maintain, as I, that there is no reasoning with him and that he has damaged his reputation and integrity on his own.

Unless Abanes fully repents and reconciles, he is on his way to self-destruction and judgement from God.

“When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, the foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest” (Proverbs 29:9)

So I say to Richard Abanes and those like him, keep Rolling On the Floor Laughing (ROFL); keep mocking ministries called of God to share the truth and defend the faith; keep twisting the truth and causing the innocent to stumble. After all the dust has settled, God will have the last word.

“The one who guards his mouth preserves his life; the one who opens wide his lips comes to ruin” (Proverbs 13:3).

“At the same time they also learn to be idle, as they go around from house to house; and not merely idle, but also gossips and busybodies, talking about things not proper to mention” (1 Timothy 5:13).

“Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting” (Romans 16:17-18).

God bless you, Tim. Stay strong in the Lord.

Bud Press, Director
Christian Research Service
http://www.christianresearchservice.com
Jude 3

Related reading:

Letters to Richard Abanes…
http://www.christianresearchservice.com/LetterstoRichardAbanes.htm

Richard Abanes Issues Warning About Ken Blanchard…
http://www.christianresearchservice.com/LetterstoRichardAbanes3.htm

Ken Blanchard/Lead Like Jesus? Research Page
http://www.christianresearchservice.com/LeadingLikeJesus.htm

Two Different Camps And Spiritual Blindness

2008-07-14T19:58:00.001-04:00

John 9:39-41

"39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”
40 Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?”
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.

First I want to start this article off with some comments from men who are much more learned that myself.

"Religious leaders are often amongst those who are spiritually blind. Many times Jesus accused the Pharisees of being “blind leaders of the blind” (Matthew 15:14; 23:24; 23:26 etc.). Thus being religious, a christian or even a christian leader does not provide immunity from this ailment. It is even possible that religious people are more prone to catching this than other people and the more spiritual we think we are, the more likely we are to catch it.

There are a few things that cause blindness. The first is pride. Remember that “All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes” (Proverbs 16:2). After Saul had disobeyed the command of the Lord, he actually erected a statue to himself, and with the bleating of the cursed sheep in the background, greeted Samuel with the words: “I have performed the commandment of the LORD” (1Samuel 15:13). His arrogance had made him so blind that he really thought that wrong was right. Even after Samuel had clearly explained to Saul how he had disobeyed, he still did not get it. The story of the first king of Israel is a sad saga of a man who was so blinded by his arrogance that he never understood a single thing the prophet said to him. Even once David had been anointed in his place and clearly carried God’s blessing, Saul still thought he could hold onto the anointing by killing David. How terribly sad.

The antidote to blindness that comes through pride is obviously humility.

source Anton Bosch http://www.antonbosch.org/Articles/English%202008/spiritually%20blind.html

"So, the world is divided into two groups: those that are in darkness, the spiritually blind and those that have sight, the spiritually seeing. There are only two kinds of people. There's no half sight. There are no partially blind. You either see or you are totally blind. "

If a man won't recognize his blindness, Christ can't give him sight, is that right? And that was the Pharisees problem. They would not admit their blindness. Jesus says I came to give sight to those who know they need it and I came to those who think they see to let them know they're really blind and if need be to confirm them in their blindness.

When Jesus sees this man worshiping at His feet and He compares the humble confiding heart of that beggar with the hostility and stubborn hatred of the Pharisees, He admits that that's the way it's going to be when He comes. When I come, there's going to be judgment...slash, right down the middle, this group will believe and see, this group will be obstinate and will not see and will be confirmed in their blindness."

source John MacArthur http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/GC1527.HTM

So what does Phoenix Preacher, Sliced Laodecia (CRN.Info) and their buddy Richard Abanes all have in common?

Let me preface this first by stating that I do not think everyone who frequents either one of these blogs are spiritually blind. I do however think the leadership at both these blogs fit this category.

And I also want you no notice that this opposite camp would also state the same about myself and my brothers and sisters in the Lord.

I will leave it to you the reader to decide who is spiritially blind.

What prompted me to write this article was a comment that the leader of Phoenix Preacher left on my blog (a comment I have not posted until now) as well as a lot thats been going on this last year with people like Richard Abanes and the sites he frequents.

Here is Michael's comment's

"Two differences…
I allow dissenting viewpoints on my blog and I’m accountable for what I say.
Bud Press was allowed to voice his opinions, as ill thought out as they were.
The other major difference is that people actually read my blog."

This reply was on a article I wrote here-

http://nogoofyzone.wordpress.com/2008/06/30/oprah-winfrey-logic/

The biggest problem I have with members of the opposite camp is that there comments are very often not mature and do not even address the topic being discussed. If you have a dissenting view thats fine but explain why, and then explain your position. Dont just do a drive by comment. Whats the point thats not edyifying at all to the Body of Christ. If Im wrong, well ok , show me where Im wrong or in error with what scripture teaches.

Lets look at Michaels comments-

" I allow dissenting viewpoints on my blog'

To Michaels point I do as well if it adds to the discussion. I would also ask Michael in a act of fairness hold Abanes and his blog under the same scrutiny as you do me. I often do not let comments fly here because of several reasons.

1. The comment sometimes does not address the topic being spoke of. Look at the long strings of comments often made by 5-10 people on both Phoenix Preacher or CRN. Go down to about the middle of the comments and look at whats being stated. They can either be talking about hockey or some other bunny trail. Usually nothing to do with the post. It turns into a old ladies quilting bee gossip session often found in small towns. Whats the point of letting comment's like that go on? Im not letting that happen here. If you disagree with me thats ok I dont know everything. But say why you disagree and show scripture that backs up what you state. The bottom line with either camp is that nothing we say matters if it doesntjive with Gods word in scripture. The real scary thing is that many of these comments are made by men who state they are pastors. Michaels recent comments to me were made at around 5:30 am this morning. Michael looking at my site that early now that is weird.

I want to add that often these long strings that sites like Phoenix Preacher and CRN generate produce a lot of hits but reduce down to gossip, innuendo and ad hominem attack.

Michaels comments-

"I’m accountable for what I say"

My comments-Thats great what was the responce from those you are accountable to you telling my brother in the Lord Bud Press to "bleep off"?

The other camp also implies often that myself and my brothers and sisters in the Lord are not accountable to anyone.

I cant speak for everyone but I can state we do hold each other accountable. And as for me I attend a church on a regular basis and am accountable to a pastor who knows about and reads my blog. A pastor who I let know "If you ever see anything on my site that concerns you please let me know". My pastor does read my blog and has invited Ray Yungen author of "Time of Departing" to speak at our church at the end of this month.

Michaels comments-

"Bud Press was allowed to voice his opinions, as ill thought out as they were."

My comments-

Notice Michael does not extend grace to Bud Press by perhaps saying Bud Press was allowed to voice his opinion's, I however disagree with them (and then state why he disagree's with Buds opinions).

Instead Michael chooses to use a ad hominem attack. Something me and my brothers and sisters in the Lord are accused of all the time. Even though the choose of words very seldom are backed up with a statement and facts on why someone thinks we are using ad hominem.

And now to the facts behind Buds statement on Phoenix Preacher. Bud was just holding Richard Abanes accountable. Richard emailed Bud and asked Bud for more information on Ken Blanchard and Ken's new age connection. Richard wanted new information that took place after 2005. Bud provided the information which Richard Abanes has choosen not to act on.

Why were Buds comments thought of as opinions? They were not based on any opnions what so ever but factual information? And Bud responded with grace. Or did I miss something here?

Michaels recent comments-

"There is no such thing as an Arminianist, but that’s par for the course with you."

My comments- Michael does not state his position on why there is no such thing as a Arminianist just points out Im wrong and then adds ad hominem.

Simpson proves that he understands neither Arminianism or Calvinism as he mangles both systems badly.

My comments-does not explain where he thinks Sandy was in error. Just a drive by comment with no thought because Michael does not state his opposing position.

You really need to take some classes…"

My comments ad hominem and trying to be spiritually elite something I have had to deal with when I played in Word faith churches. Same spirit as Abanes has and its not the Holy Spirit. We are dealing with a spirit here folks. The camp I am in would state that the opposite camp is in spiritual blindness. The opposite camp would state the same thing about us. You decide who is biblically correct.

Michael has addressed the Todd Bentley issue over at his blog. Good for him.

Richard Abanes has remained silent about Todd Bentley and what he thinks about Todd and this false revival. C.Peter Wagner is connected to both Todd and Rick Warren. Plus it would alientatea target book buying audience. Perhaps thatswhy Richard remains silent about Ken Blanchard as well. Abanes deals mainly with what is outside of Christianity not deception from within. Again dealing with whats going on within would alienate ones target audience when you are selling a product.

Im amazed by folks who flock to Abanes and cant see through Richard and his spin.

Look at the Rick Warren, Robert Schuller connection.

In Richards booklet "Rick Warren and the Purpose that Drives Him". Richard had a golden opportunity to set the record straight about Warren and Schuller.

Missed it because he did not let Rick Warren speak for himself.

Richard asked Rick Warren this on page 29

RA: And (Robert) Schuller is your mentor!

RW: And Schuller is my mentor!

RA: Ok,wait. Is Robert Schuller your mentor?

RW: No! Never has been, never would be!

End of quote-

Wow thats it. A really big issue and in a personal interview with Rick Warren two small quotes dedicated to this hot topic. But wait Richard dedicates pages 99-106 explaining to his audience on how Rick thinks and feels about this issue. But yet we didnt hear this from Warren himself when he was given the opportunity to clear this up.

Looking at Warrens methods and the Warrens continued alliance with Schullers conferences any discerning Christian can see the real deal here.

This is just one instance in many where Richard Abanes tells us how Rick Warren thinks and feels.

You decide whats truth.

I am opposed to all Rick Warren does because his root is evil. He built his business(Saddleback and Purpose Driven religion) on the whims of what the unsaved wanted in a church. This is history by what Rick Warren did. This method is also diametrically opposed to what scripture teaches in building a church. Check the book of Acts on how a church is supposed to be built.

I want to state that I do not hate Rick Warren, Abanes or any of the folks at CRN or Phoenix preacher or anyone for that matter. Online is often a difficult media form to communicate your heart from because people cannot hear the tone of your voice or other nuances that make vocal communication a better way to communicate.

Now granted letting Richard Abanes comment on your blog almost guarantee's you a couple hundred hits to your blog (usually by about the same 10-15 people).

But is this all edifying to the Body of Christ?

I tell you what Christianity is a mess here in the states. And maybe a part of that problem is because many shepherds are spending more time online than they are with their flocks.

Ultimately you decide.

I will allow opposing views on this post if you so desire. Stay on topic though or your post will not see the light of day. If Im in error show me where and prove your point. I dont care how long your comments are as long as they stay on topic. Thats the rules you will need to abide by them.

Plus I work so if your post is not immediately on dont think I am censoring you, I just may not have read your comment yet. I will not allow comments that

I spend a very limited time online.

If you dont want to comment and take this to your own blogs thats fine of course.

I take your opposition and negative article's about me as a badge of honor.

Because we are from two different camps.

Peace

Tim

2008-07-13T09:19:00.002-04:00

I have never considered myself either a Calvinist (soft or 3 point or whatever term people would use) or Aminianist but just a Christian a follower of Jesus Christ.

I have friends that are Calvinist who of course I still consider friends and brothers and sisters in the Lord.

This is a older article by my good friend and brother in the Lord Sandy Simpson and is a very good read.

Sandy Simpson has been a reliable source of biblically solid information information for me for many years. The materials that he promotes on his website are very well worth the small cost they are sold at. His information on the false apostolic movement and Rick Warrens mentor C. Peter Wagner is very good and I heartily endorse Sandys material. Sandy is on the same page with me on Rick Warren as well as other topics of false teaching that continues to hit and weaken the church.

Other must also consider Sandy a reliable source of information because Sandy's website gets over

1 million hits a month.

Here is a link to Sandys website http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/index.html

Here is the article-

Doctrines Fueling The Third Wave

by Sandy Simpson, 1999

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Calvinism vs. Arminianism Debate

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It has become my considered opinion that part of the delusion of the Third Wave is facilitated, not only by certain doctrines in Arminianism and semi-Pelagianism, but also by certain doctrines of Calvinism (Once Saved Always Saved). Both doctrinal systems have fatal flaws.

Please understand that the following is my exegesis of Scripture. I admit that I could be wrong and am willing to discuss the points I am making here. Some of the concepts of these doctrinal systems are not easy to explain, prove or disprove. My goal is always to be like Paul who was happy when people checked what he said daily with Scripture (Acts 17:11). I hold Scripture to be the highest authority for the believer in matters of Christian faith and practice. I also hold to the core doctrines of the church, which I will remind the reader of at this point:

1. The Trinity: God must be one "what" and three "who's" with each "who" possessing all the attributes of Deity and personality.
2. The Person of Jesus Christ: Jesus is 100% God and 100% man for all eternity.
3. The Second Coming: Jesus Christ is coming bodily to earth to rule and judge.
4. Salvation: By grace through faith alone in Christ alone.
5. The Scripture: It is entirely inerrant and sufficient for all Christian life.

There are probably a few other doctrines that are VERY important, though not on the level of the above, such as the proper view of the person and work of the Holy Spirit. I do not regard the adherence to either strict Calvinism or strict Arminianism as on the same level as the core doctrines even though this debate is VERY important. Therefore we can argue these issues and still remain in unity as Christians. However, I do believe that anyone who holds strictly to either camp is wrong and should vigorously examine his position. Many hold to one or more points in either camp, or a mixture of both. Some, like myself, hold to a few points but see an antinomy in others, as well as sometimes error in both views, as I attempt to let the Scriptures form my doctrines, not the other way around.

Let me illustrate why neither doctrinal system is perfect by comparing the two doctrines point for point (all references are NIV unless otherwise indicated):

(1) ARMINIANISM - FREE WILL
Arminius believed that the fall of man was not total, maintaining that there was enough good left in man for him to will to accept Jesus Christ unto salvation.

WRONG!

This is very unbiblical since the Bible says:

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (KJV)
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Ro 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
Ro 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
Ro 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Ro 3:10 As it is written: "There is no-one righteous, not even one;

The fall of man was total. Nonetheless, man is capable of believing in Jesus Christ for his salvation, responding to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Joh 16:8 When he comes, he (the Holy Spirit) will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

(1) CALVINISM - "T" = TOTAL DEPRAVITY
The Calvinists believed that man is in absolute bondage to sin and Satan, unable to exercise his own will to trust in Jesus Christ without the help of God.

PARTLY WRONG!

It is true that man is in absolute bondage to sin and Satan, until the Holy Spirit convicts a man of his sin and he repents and believes. We absolutely do need the "help of God". But a man does need to exercise his will by believing. Man is not a robot. The Spirit convicts. Man has to believe, an act of the will.

Joh 16:8 When he comes, he (the Holy Spirit) will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Acts 16:30-31 He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
1Jo 5:10 Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.

(2) ARMINIANISM - CONDITIONAL ELECTION
Arminius believed that election was based on the foreknowledge of God as to who would believe. Man's "act of faith" was seen as the "condition" or his being elected to eternal life, since God foresaw him exercising his free will in response to Jesus Christ.

RIGHT, AS FAR IS IT GOES.

God did not predestine man for either hell or heaven, but rather predestined those He foreknew who would be saved. If this were not so then the Bible would be untruthful in stating:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (KJV)
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (KJV)
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. (NRSV)
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (KJV)
Joh 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

God did choose men according to His foreknowledge of their free will response to salvation offered through Jesus Christ.

1Pe 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
Ro 11:2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.
Mr 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Ro 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Ro 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

In some places only "foreknowledge" is mentioned as in Rom. 11, and in others only "predestination" is mentioned as in Eph. 1. But it is noteworthy to notice that the word "foreknew" precedes the word "predestined" in the following passage that OSAS people use as one of their major proofs for predestination:

Ro 8:29-30 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

I believe that predestination as a result of foreknowledge is the key to beginning to understand the antinomy of predestination versus God not being willing "that any should perish". This is one of the most difficult concepts to explain or understand that is taught in the Bible.

(2) CALVINISM - "U" = UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
The Calvinists believed that foreknowledge is based upon the plan and purpose of God, and that election is not based upon the decision of man, but the "free will" of the Creator alone.

PARTLY WRONG!

Predestination is a result of foreknowledge, as we have already covered in Rom. 8:29-30. Foreknowledge IS based upon God's plan, but His plan for the salvation of all men.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (KJV)
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (KJV)
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (KJV)

Election is a biblical fact.

Mt 24:22 If those days had not been cut short, no-one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

But election (with regard to the New Covenant) is not based on some choice by God to reject some men and redeem others, which would not be consistent with the Word and the Testimony of His character of justice and grace, but based on whether or not a man chooses to believe in Jesus Christ.

2Pe 1:10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Jesus was an example for us and proved Himself by signs and miracles so that men might see them and make a conscious decision to believe.

Ro 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Salvation comes through faith alone, not by chance or robotic behavior.

(3) ARMINIANISM - UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT
Arminius held that redemption was based on the fact that God loves everybody, that Christ died for everyone, and that the Father is not willing that any should perish. The death of Christ provided the grounds for God to save all men, but each must exercise his own "free will" in order to be saved.

RIGHT!

God loves everyone.

1Jo 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.
1Jo 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

He loved us even though we, at one time, did not love Him. He died for everyone.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (KJV)
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (KJV)
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (KJV)
Joh 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

We must exercise our will to claim salvation bought for us on Calvary.

Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

If we have no faith the gospel is of no value to us.

Heb 4:2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.

(3) CALVINISM - "L" = LIMITED ATONEMENT
The Calvinists believed that Jesus Christ died to save those who were given to Him by the Father in eternity past. In their view, all for whom Jesus died (the elect) will be saved, and all for whom He did not die (the non elect) will be lost.

PARTLY WRONG!

God did give Jesus Christ the inheritance of the saved from eternity past.

Eph 1:5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

However, this truth becomes an antinomy with this truth:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (KJV)

Jesus did not just die for a select few, but for all men:

2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (KJV)
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

All for whom Christ died will be saved if they believe, and not saved if they do not believe:

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Mr 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

(4) ARMINIANISM - “OBSTRUCTIBLE” GRACE
Arminius believed that since God wanted all men to be saved, He sent the Holy Spirit to "woo" all men to Christ, but since man has absolute "free will," he is able to resist God's will for his life. He believed that God's will to save all men can be frustrated by the finite will of man. He also taught that man exercises his own will first, and then is born again.

PARTLY WRONG!

God does want all men to be saved:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (KJV) < span>r>Joh 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

There is no Scripture that talks about the Holy Spirit "wooing" men to Christ. However, the Holy Spirit does convict men of sin:

Joh 16:8 When he comes, he (the Holy Spirit) will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

Man is able to resist the Spirit and His call to repentance and salvation. Some Jews resisted the Holy Spirit and were lost unless they repented.

Ac 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
1Jo 5:16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.

The "sin that leads to death" is probably resisting the conviction of the Holy Spirit and salvation offered by Christ to all men. God's will, however, cannot be thwarted by men.

Heb 6:17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.
Nu 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfil?

God may change His mind when He chooses to, sometimes at the request or repentance of men, and for His own glory and purposes, but His will cannot be thwarted.

Ex. 32:11-14 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

But it is true that a man must believe and be born again.

John 3:2-3 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no-one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him." In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no-one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
Ro 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

(4) CALVINISM - "I" = IRRESISTIBLE GRACE
The Calvinists believed that the Lord possesses irresistible grace that cannot be obstructed. They taught that the free will of man is so far removed from salvation, that the elect are regenerated (made spiritually alive) by God even before expressing faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. If a totally depraved person wasn't made alive by the Holy Spirit, such a calling on God would be impossible.

WRONG!

Salvation is conditional, applied by grace through our faith. Remember: Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. It is by the grace of Christ alone that salvation was afforded to men, not by works lest any man should boast. It is by faith alone that salvation by grace alone is applied to our lives. We lay hold of the miracle of grace by faith.

Ro 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

A man can resist the grace of God. Not to believe when convicted by the Spirit is to resist the Spirit.

Mr 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Ac 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

A person cannot resist the Spirit unless the Spirit is at work in him. The Spirit was at work among the Jews in the above instance, but there were those who resisted grace. A person who is a believer can even grieve the Holy Spirit.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

To say that "the elect are regenerated (made spiritually alive) by God even before expressing faith in Jesus Christ for salvation." is a very unbiblical doctrine. The Bible is clear about the terms of our salvation, purchased for us by Jesus Christ. We must believe!

Ro 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Ro 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
Ga 3:22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
1Ti 1:16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

Many unsaved people have called on God. Of course God knows if they will or will not respond, but all men are sinful from the beginning, thus are equally either capable or incapable of believing in Jesus Christ. Since many men have come to a belief in Christ, this proves that a "totally depraved person"—which includes every person who ever lived with the exception of Jesus Christ—can recognize his sin (because of his knowledge of good and evil, his God-given conscience?) and believe because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit, having heard and responded to the gospel message.

Ro 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Notice we are not marked with the Holy Spirit’s seal before we believed!

(5) ARMINIANISM - FALLING FROM GRACE
If man cannot be saved by God unless it is man's will to be saved, then man cannot continue in salvation unless he continues to will to be saved.

PARTLY WRONG!

Man cannot continue in salvation unless he continues to will to be saved, or believe (continuous tense). That is true in one sense.

Ro 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Ro 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

However, to state that "man cannot be saved by God unless it is man's will to be saved" is an over-simplification of the facts. God knows who will be saved having foreknown those who would believe. He desires that everyone be saved, but because of His foreknowledge He predestined those He foreknew to salvation. It is His will that everyone be saved, and a certain percentage will be. God's will is therefore ultimately important in the process, since it was He who provided salvation through His Son—reaching out to us. There is also a necessity of belief on the part of His creatures to claim that free gift of salvation.

(5) CALVINISM - "P" = PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS
The Calvinists believed that salvation is entirely the work of the Lord, and that man has absolutely nothing to do with the process. The saints will persevere because God will see to it that He will finish the work He has begun.

OVERSIMPLIFICATION OF THE FACTS!

Jesus Christ paid the price. We must believe and trust Him. We do not effect our salvation which is by the grace of Christ alone, but we must believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ for it to be applied to us.

Ro 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Ro 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

God will see to it that those who continue to believe will persevere. But they must continue in "His kindness" or be cut off.

Ro 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Paul was confident in prayer that the Philippians would be brought to final salvation because of their perseverance and faith.

Php 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Paul's confidence for the Philippians is one thing. Absolute assurance is another. This verse often used by OSAS adherents must be balanced with the other biblical truths that we can fall away, shrink back, wander from the truth, shipwreck our faith, have our faith destroyed, and be cut off if we cease to continue in His kindness.

Lu 8:13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
Heb. 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
Heb. 10:38 But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him."
1Ti 1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.
2 Tim. 2:17-18 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
Ro 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

In Summary

Hopefully I have helped you see the deficiencies in both doctrinal systems. The issue of eternal security versus conditional security is, in some respects, an antinomy. The definition of an antinomy is that it is two truths that are both true yet apparently opposite. We must all return to the Scriptures and take the whole teaching of the Word, instead of relying on these doctrinal systems that are, at best, faulty and at worst, very damaging and unbiblical in certain ways. We must be careful of the doctrines of men:

Mr 7:7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.

Recommendations

For five point Calvinists, I recommend reading two books. First the book by Dave Hunt entitled “What Love Is This?”. The second is an 801 page book entitled, "The Believer's Conditional Security" by Daniel Corner. These two books bring some balance back from all the heavy emphasis on OSAS in many ministries today. I must caution that I do not agree with every method and premise in Corner’s refutation of Calvinism, as should be evident by the paper you just read. It is my hope that this book will remind Christians that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. It‘s good to study the issues of predestination just as it’s good to study the issues of shipwrecking one's faith. Hopefully after careful study a Christian will come to the conclusion that, somehow, both the concepts of predestination and freewill coexist equally in the Word of God and thus we must accept them by faith, even if we cannot fully understand them as one concept together.

In short, God knows who has been saved from beginning to end. We, as created beings, cannot know the final salvation outcome for anyone except for ourselves as we continue in faith believing, though we can rightly discern a person’s current spiritual condition by their doctrine and fruit (Jn. 15:20, 2 Tim. 3:12, 2 pet. 2:7-8, Rom. 6:21, Lk. 8:21, Jam. 2:14, Gal. 1:8-9, ! Cor. 15:1-4, 1 Pet. 4:4, 2 Cor. 6:17-18, Jn. 8:32-36, Rom. 6:16-18). The word “believe” is more accurately translated "continue believing" (continuous tense in the Greek in many passages) till the end. Many strict OSAS teachers promote a "grace without the need for continued faith" and a "salvation based on a past moment of belief" thereby teaching Christians not to really fear God's judgement on their continued habitual sins and lack of faith. This has brought a number of false interpretations of Scripture, and an ignorance of the true grace teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

One of these false Calvinistic teachings is that believers "can never fall away" (Heb. 6:4-6, Mark 14:27, 2 Pet. 1:10, 1 Cor. 10:12) or "be cut off" (Rom. 11:22) in opposition to clear teaching in Scripture. This causes Christians not to take unrepentant immorality, idolatry, false teachings, false prophecy and the false anointing of the Third Wave as seriously as they should. This is because many OSAS teachers claim that "God will never allow believers to be deceived" even though the Bible includes dire warnings to believers against being deceived by false teachers (2 Pet. 2:1, Luke 21:8, 2 Cor. 11:13, Mt. 24:5,11,24, Eph. 5:6).

Another of the false teachings based on OSAS (this is my opinion, not necessarily Dan Corner's) is that believers cannot be demonized (not speaking of "possession", but "demonization") which is contrary to both Biblical examples of demonization of believers (Job 1:8-9; 2:3; 2:7, 1Sa 16:14-16, 18:10, 19:9, Matt. 15:22-28, Matt. 16:22-23, Mark 1:23, Luke 9:52-56, Luke 13:11-16, John 6:70-71, 13:27 Acts 5:1-11, Acts 8:9-24, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 3:1, 1 Tim. 1:19-20) and Biblical teaching to not give the devil a foothold or to allow the sin nature to control us (Eph. 4:25-27, 1 Cor 5:1-5, 2 Cor 2:10-11, 2 Cor. 11:3-4, 1 Tim. 4:1-2, 2 Tim. 2:24-26).

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Copywrite 1999 Sandy Simpson
This document may be distributed if the content is not changed in any way.

New Todd Bentley article

2008-07-12T10:14:00.004-04:00

The Rick Warren, Todd Bentley connection is through the mentor they share in false apostle C. Peter Wagner.
Here is a new article on Todd sent to me by my friend and brother in the Lord John Baker.
Tim

Todd Bentley, Fresh Fire Ministries and Lakeland Revival

Compiled By S. E. Ray

Canadian Todd Bentley doesn't look like a minister as some would expect. The 32-year-old openly sports body piercings and tattoos on his arms and neck, which has caused many to question his purpose and motivations.

On April 2, 2008, Bentley was invited by Stephen Strader, pastor of Ignited Church, Lakeland, Florida, to lead a one-week revival. The revival quickly became a religious and media phenomenon, attracting up to 10,000 attendees nightly. It continued after the first week. In addition to showcasing Bentley's evangelism, the revival features colorful light shows and power-chord Christian rock music.

The Ignited Church quickly hired A New York public relations firm to send out press releases claiming "documented healings." Information and webcasts were made available via their website and the revival is streamed live via stream - which received over 1 million hits in the first five weeks of transmissions. After the initial weeks, GOD TV, a religious satellite channel, decided to pre-empt its primetime programming and broadcast the Lakeland meetings nightly.

Stepping back to 1998, the FreshFire Ministry Group asked Bentley to give his testimony at one of their weekly meetings. Soon after, Bentley took over the leadership of the group, which became more of a revival movement. He works with and/or otherwise promotes Patricia King of Extreme Prophetic, and he is also very close to aberrant Kansas City prophet Bob Jones, supports Rick Joyner, as well as such churches as the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship. Todd Bentley’s neo-Pentecostalism is Latter Rain influenced and Bentley now claims to have William Branham’s ministry angels helping him.

To understanding Todd Bentley's origin of power, one must understand the geneaology from which it sprang. William Branham was born in Berksville, Kentucky, in dire poverty. At the age of 5, he heard "A Voice" who directed him to abstain from coffee, smoking and alcohol. This disembodied Voice was later given credit for his unusual healing powers by William himself. William Branham was fascinated with the Zodiac and Egyptian occultism as his mentor was occultist Franklin Hall. Branham’s obsession with the occult is evident even in his death: his grave is marked by a Masonic occult pyramid atop his grave.

He taught his "Serpent Seed" doctrines in the 1950's, of how Eve had intercourse with the Serpent, and all the seed from Cain are predestined for hell. He even called the handsome serpent the missing link between man and monkey. Branham later declared himself the angel of Rev. 3:13 and 10:7 and prophesied that in 1977, all denominations would be consumed by the Roman Catholics, the rapture would take place and the world would end. Before his death in 1965, his occult healing spirit was transferred to hundreds by the laying on of hands. These people include almost all the major names who operated as "healing" evangelists during that time, and who are still at work today. They took Branham’s mantle through the period known as the Latter Rain, endued by the power of his demonic occult entity. William lived his life in fear and acted under a compulsive-type behavior associated with his life-long demonic oppression.

William Branham is an important figure in modern day charismatic, Pentecostal, and emerging church circles. The reason is that not just his latter rain theology, but also his ’spirit’, and (allegedly) his ministering ’angels’ have been passed onto a new generation of prophets. A ‘badge’ of elitism and favor in the new prophetic movement are those who can boast of having met with Branham’s angel or having a vision of it. Testimonies to these angelic encounters are included on Todd Bentley’s website. Paul Cain, closely linked with William Branham, as well as claiming he works directly with Branham’s angels in a similar manner to Branham. It is he who passed the power onto John Wimber and his Vineyard with the prophetic spirit which in turn infected the multi denominational wider church through the Toronto Blessing. The fruit of this has been the elevation and increase of the ‘tent’ of the Kansas City Prophets, whose role call includes Paul Cain, Marilyn Hickey, Earl Paulk, Oral Roberts, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth and Gloria Copeland, Benny Hinn and now Todd Bentley to name a few.

The Latter Rain is where the so-called ‘Toronto Blessing’ began. The movement is characterized by a plethora of unorthodox teachings and questionable practices — encouraged and promoted by alleged ‘words,’ ‘prophecies’ and ‘visions’ from God, and accompanied by anything from outbreaks of uncontrollable laughter, people acting as if they were drunk, and claims of having received gold dust (calling card of Emma-O?) or other ’supernatural signs’ from God. Bentley’s teachings and practices place his ministry squarely among the controversial renewal and revival movements.

Michael Horton, who wrote “The Agony of Deceit,” which documents fraud among televangelists, said at an interview, “I have not yet encountered a 'faith healer' who failed to preach a different gospel than the one that we find clearly presented in the New Testament." Many of the faithful are understandably grieved by this bold resurfacing of Apostolic/Third Wave/Latter Rain teaching, which is a mix of New Age teachings and altered Pentecostal methodologies.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon "Prince of Preachers", a British Reformed Baptist preacher who died in 1892 said “Discernment is not a matter of simply telling the difference between what is right and wrong; rather, it is the difference between right and almost right."

Even those sympathetic to Pentecostal theology are apprehensive. Mark Balmer, pastor of the 8,000-person Calvary Church in nearby Melbourne, FL, received so many questions about Bentley that he finally spoke regarding his position. He said he believes "in all the gifts for today, including healing." He also asserted: "We are not heresy hunters." He nonetheless told his congregation "not to attend this counterfeit revival." Lee Grady of Charisma magazine said "Charismatic and Pentecostal leaders are divided over its legitimacy."

As background information, Todd Bentley is relatively a new Christian with no formal training or experience in the exposition of scripture. Bentley openly acknowledges the rougher parts of his juvenile past, including his near-fatal drug overdoses, criminal burglaries, assault, physical abuse of his mother and several stints in prison. In 2001, an article in a secular, conservative political magazine called The Report, prompted a mother to reveal about his molesting her 7 year old boy when Todd was 14. Bentley admitted to The Report “I was involved in a sexual-assault ring." Lieutenant Jeff Johnston, a Salvation Army pastor in Port Alberni, B.C said “It’s one thing to be forgiving, it’s another thing to be stupid,” Lieut. Johnston says. “If you, as a pastor, had someone in your church ministry who had been involved in these things and they ever re-offended, the fact that you knew and didn’t disclose it to parents, take every precaution, would be a huge liability issue.” Christians realize that a soul can be saved by grace from any sin, however he personally claims that he was demon possessed after having been born-again, which poses a problem considering his self-acclaimed position.

A visit to one of Bentley's services suggests that he knows how to turn the big crowds into big money. ATM machines were set up alongside food booths, providing attendees with readily available cash for the offering plate and book purchases. At Todd’s revivals, he sells “anointed” handkerchiefs, and takes money from people so that he may pray over them. This is normal with the people on the Elijah list, who believe God condones taking money from people so that they can prophesy over them.

Todd wrote on the etpv.org website in 2003 “Now let me talk about an angelic experience with Emma. Twice Bob Jones asked me about this angel that was in Kansas City in 1980: “Todd, have you ever seen the angel by the name of Emma?” He asked me as if he expected that this angel was appearing to me. Surprised, I said, “Bob, who is Emma?” He told me that Emma was the angel that helped birth and start the whole prophetic movement in Kansas City in the 1980s. She was a mothering-type angel that helped nurture the prophetic as it broke out. Within a few weeks of Bob asking me about Emma, I was in a service in Beulah, North Dakota. In the middle of the service I was in conversation with Ivan and another person when in walks Emma. As I stared at the angel with open eyes, the Lord said, “Here’s Emma.” I’m not kidding. She floated a couple of inches off the floor. It was almost like Kathryn Khulman in those old videos when she wore a white dress and looked like she was gliding across the platform. Emma appeared beautiful and young-about 22 years old-but she was old at the same time. She seemed to carry the wisdom, virtue and grace of Proverbs 31 on her life.”

Without any exception that I have found, every questionable spiritual movement is marked by intervening Angels giving guidance, not necessarily God’s Word or the Holy Spirit of Truth. Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Jose Luis De Jesus Miranda, Jerry and Esther Hicks, Rhonda Byrne, Helen Schucman, JZ Knight… the list is long for those who are popular and have spirit guides from the fallen realm. Bob Jones and Todd Bentley and their spirit guide “Emma” are no different. Todd attributes his "miracles" according to his own testimony, is from an angel that he says is called "Emma". It should be interesting to note, in the book of angels, Emma (Imma Ila'ah, feminine, in the Kabbalah) means “Embrace Everything.” Also closely related, another name used is “Emma-O“, which in Japanese mythology means “King of Hell” or Satan.

Todd's progressive "body suit," which is a term for a complete body tattoo, is covered with Japanese symbols, occultism and Christian depictions. Shown in this photo is the warrior Apollo, who in mythology and alchemy, his spiritual and symbolic significance is identical with that of the sun. The spreading golden hairs which crown the god's head have the same meaning as the bow and arrow (sun rays). The Greek name for Apollo is Apollon, which means 'from the depths of the lion". Apollon was the great Olympian god of prophecy, oracles, healing, and the aversion of plague and general harm. He is also call Apollyon in scripture, or Hebrew "Abaddon" (Rev. 9:11) also identified as the king of the demonic "locusts" described in Rev. 9:3-10. The locust was a delivery method of this god, who poisoned his victims. Why would Todd choose to embellish a fierce god of destruction on his body?

One of the tattoos that have puzzled people are the three large Japanese Kanji symbols on his left arm. Eternal Path turned to expert Takanori Tomita, a native speaker of Japanese and fluent in English, who translates Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana Symbols. Kanji are ideographic characters. Each Kanji character represents an entire object, idea, or meaning in a visual character(s). Many Kanji characters are similar to each other, and some can have different meanings depending on context. The first letter on Todd's arm means DAI=Big or Great, the middle one EI=Protect or Defend, the last one OU=King or Monarch. In Japanese, DAIOU is often added to provide honor to the subject of mention. In proper order, it would seem to read "Protect Great King," however not only is the order wrong, but the character in the middle is incorrectly rendered. Furthermore, even if the middle character is used at the top, there's no such word combination like "Protect the Great King". It doesn't make any sense in Japanese even if the order of the characters are corrected and the middle character is properly written. It is not unusual for Western tattoo translations to be in error. The middle symbol does not represent the Chinese character "David" in this context, as is widely speculated.

Alex Mizuno, another individual versed in Japanese tradition and writing styles, who produces Japanese documentaries, revealed that there is a Japanese word "Emma Daioh" which means "Emma, the Great King", which is used very commonly in his culture. This God is sometimes simply called "Emma-sama (sama is added for respect)" or "Emma." Buddhists recognize Emma-sama as Yama, who rules the spirits of the dead in Naraku (hell). He said Todd's erred tattoo was in favor of the latter translation. The tongues of flame accenting the Kanji symbols also support his position depicting the god of Naraku.

After Todd's alleged conversion, he had tattooed under his arm a depiction of Jesus’ crucified upside-down face with a subliminal monkey in the beard. Above the tip of the head, is a tattoo of what is said to be Oni, a “Buddhist guardian devil” of Hell. An argument is lifted up against Todd’s ongoing tattoo additions. Under the old law, it was written:"You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the LORD." Leviticus 19:28. Even though Christian's are not under the law to fulfill righteousness, as they are saved by grace, they are to uphold it (Romans 3:31). The question has been asked, why does Todd continue to add graffiti to his body in opposition to the Biblical standard?

The leaders of this revival in question have fruits that should be examined. For example, Bob Jones “was removed from the Vineyard Anaheim because of sexual improprieties, which consisted of encouraging women to undress in his office so they could stand ‘naked before the Lord’ in order to receive a ‘word.’” I am sure as a man; he was moved by pure motivations. Todd “Bam” Bentley runs and kicks people in the stomach with metastatic stage IV colon cancer while ignoring children lined up in wheelchairs, who hope in vain that the revival is real and they might get healed. Instead people leave in a hypnotic state from the charismatic frenzy. Similar events are plaguing Asia, thanks to the West's influence (video - video).

Some attendees speak of new oppressions and those who purported to be healed from a malignant condition die shortly thereafter anyway. It has been questioned by some critics of Todd's ministry, all Biblical divine healings lasted for the rest of the person's natural life, why doesn't his? Todd and those serving with him claim documentation to support numerious healings, 50,000 in 90 days, however when pressed by Geraldo Rivera on FoxNews (video) and ABC Nightline (P1 - P2), nothing has been provided to date, despite Todd's promise to reveal proof.

In Jesus' time, healings were not debated over as if they were legitimate. It was undeniable and plainly evident to all, skeptics and believers alike. In Matthew 11:5, Jesus was recording as responding to John the Baptists question "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?" Christ responded, "The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor." No regenerative miracles are evident at Todd's revival, despite his claims, however some non-regenerative type healings are reported.

Author's Note: We would have added ministry videos to this article, but the Spirit was clear about not doing so. I have also read in other places, people receiving the same word. Even though video is not live, the essence of the hypnotic and ethereal power is relayed in these videos. I do not encourage anyone to seek these out to investigate less the news reports.

How does one explain minor healings if there is in fact a question regarding the authenticity of Todd's manifestations? We are warned explicitly in Scripture that the devil transforms himself into an angel of light", and that in the last days will come 'Lying signs and wonders' that will "deceive if possible the very elect." Paranormal healing has been in existence in the world since the creation, performed by shaman and faith healers. It is the oldest healing art. But the problem with this type of healing is that it is a lying wonder and opens the door to demonic influence, demonization, even possession. A lying wonder is not necessarily a false wonder or false miracle, but it is, more importantly, a miracle claimed to be from God but whose source is really from the realm of darkness. This type of healing leads the person into bondage to the enemy, symptoms that some recipients have reporting under Todd's revival.

Rev. Jeff White, a pastor at a local Missionary church in Lakeland, heard so much talk about Todd Bentley and the revival tent that he wanted to see it for himself. He struggled with what he saw. “I’ve had to fight skepticism and cynicism because I truly believe that God heals. I really believe his powers are real and it is for today,” White said. “I can’t say that my spirit enters in and joins in with some of the things we’ve seen here tonight.”

Attaining a trance-like state as many do at these revivals, doesn't immediately reveal anything about the origin of the manifestation. Every spiritual manifestation can have one of three different origins (divine, demonic or human). The discerning of spirits is necessary to identify the origin. Because the same manifestation, like falling down and shaking violently or tongues for example, can be caused either by God's Spirit, by a demonic influence or merely by the person's own propagations. Trances, prophetic ecstasy and manifestations are expounded from both the Old and New Testament. Interesting occurrences of ecstasy can be found in the biblical stories of Adam, Abraham, David and Saul, Daniel, Peter, and Paul.

Undisputedly, there have been revivals in Europe and other parts of the world since the Early Church. A very long time before John Wesley, Jonathan Edwards, Smith Wigglesworth or the Pentecostal awakening, Europe has experienced the gifts of the Holy Spirit, healing, deliverance, manifestations of the Holy Spirit. The gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit have been present non-stop since the Apostles. Church history clearly reveals this fact. However, a believer must be wise as a serpent, but gentle as a dove regarding the testimony of the leaders of such movements, comparing their words and actions to the Word of God. We are to test all things and hold fast to what is good.

Much of what is touted as Spiritual anointing by the charismatics is merely the awakening of the Kundalini by means of ancient occult methods. Kundalini is a well known occult practice, deriving its origin from India. It involves bodily manifestations as a consequence to the ‘Awakening of the Kundalini.’ This is not a mystical fabrication or belief system, but a practice that is strongly promoted by the New Age Movement (2006 Article Here). The Kundalini awakening does contain the most unbelievable expanded states of reality, enlightenment, and absolute ecstasy and it is extremely contagious. However, like crack stimulates dopamine, a Kundalini awakening opens wide a person's spiritual core, removing safeguards placed by the Creator. The end results can traumatize the spiritual essence and leave a soul scarred for life.

At the beginning of the Florida Outpouring, Todd claimed that God had requested that he lay hands on everyone present for ten nights of special transfer or impartation. This power in the occult is called the shaktipat. “Shakti” means power or energy, and “pat” means transfer. Kundalini awakening or (shaktipat) is the infusion of energy from the spiritual master to the seeker, bringing about the awakening of the seeker’s own inherent spiritual power, called “Kundalini.” Todd described this transferable “anointing” as the most contagious he had ever experienced. He said "I used to feel the anointing in my hand; now I feel it in my spine." It is true that the occult Kundalini awakening does indeed start in the lower spine.

The meetings which mystic Hindu gurus hold are called ‘Darshan’. At these meetings devotees go forward to receive spiritual experience from a touch by the open palm of the hand, often to the forehead, by the guru in what is known as the Shakti Pat or divine touch. In a group setting, the transfer of this power will spread like fire to all in attendance who are mentally open and receive the touch which results in all manner of physical manifestations. Involuntary bodily movements; jerking, tremors, shaking; spontaneous vocalizations; burning sensation; sounds in the head; confusion and stupor; gyrating and pulsating; or when slain, unable to move. These manifestations are called 'Kriyas' by the Hindus. Often devotees move on to higher states of spiritual consciousness and become inert physically and appear to slip into unconscious stupor. This state is called 'Samadhi' and it leads to a deeper spiritual experience. The Buddhist suttas mention that samadhi practitioners may develop supernormal powers that can lead to very uncomfortable occult manifestations.

The late John Murray, Professor of Systematic Theology at Westminster Theological Seminary, who died in 1975 said “the difference between truth and error is not a chasm but a razor’s edge.”

There will be many false workers, or many “Who are called by His name”, but very few will be genuinely authentic, this is just the facts (Matthew 7:22). The anointed servant are those who work without seeking recognition or fanfare as Christ and the Apostles humbly served. The Holy Spirit filled doesn’t seek fame, recognition, money and may never be known, such is the humble and contrite of heart. Those of the Pharisee spirit, egocentric and endued by principalities and powers, seek an exuberant audience, accolades, affirmation, financial gain and make a spectacle of the precious gifts of God like a side show circus. Those given to the extreme charismatic (emotional or fleshly) bent are susceptible prey to these types of leaders, whereas such is the power of hypnotic manipulation through the drone of their voice.

Let us stop for a moment and ponder, least we forget, "God is not the author of confusion, but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints." 1 Cor. 14:33. The Lord told Elijah to stand on the mountain "Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. After the earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper. When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face..." 1 Kings 19:11-13. God's spirit is NOT present in chaos or the shaking of the physical, His Spirit is found in the quiet, gentle, calm, and peaceful place.

A. W. Tozer sums it up perfectly in his normal etiquette and precision: "Many tender-minded Christians fear to sin against love by daring to inquire into anything that comes wearing the cloak of Christianity and breathing the name of Jesus. They dare not examine the credentials of the latest prophet to hit their town lest they be guilty of rejecting something which may be of God. They timidly remember how the Pharisees refused to accept Christ when He came, and they do not want to be caught in the same snare, so they either reserve judgment or shut their eyes and accept everything without question. This is supposed to indicate a high degree of spirituality. But in sober fact it indicates no such thing. It may indeed be evidence of the absence of the Holy Spirit. Gullibility is not synonymous with spirituality. Faith is not a mental habit leading its possessor to open his mouth and swallow everything that has about it the color of the supernatural. Faith keeps its heart open to whatever is of God, and rejects everything that is not of God, however wonderful it may be. Try the spirits is a command of the Holy Spirit to the Church. We may sin as certainly by approving the spurious as by rejecting the genuine. And the current habit of refusing to take sides is not the way to avoid the question. To appraise things with a heart of love and then to act on the results is an obligation resting upon every Christian in the world. And the more as we see the day approaching."

"I actually live about 45 minutes away from Lakeland, FL where Todd Bentley has set up his camp. Though I did not see him personally, I went just yesterday to Ignited Church that he is connected with. I visited a 10 am service that occurs daily, and there were probably 1,000 people there. Keep in mind that I am a worship leader/young adult pastor at a large non-denominational church, and consider myself a charismatic with a seatbelt on. I do believe in the spiritual gifts, including tongues, prophecy (which I have), and miracles or healing. I prayed to God to let me have an open mind, and for His Holy Spirit to guide me in worship and also in discernment. As I entered the lobby/ cafe area I noticed something right away: No one greeted me and there were no crosses or anything that made me feel like I was at a Christian church. As I walked into the main worship area (that had no hint of anything Christian) the music had just begun and was very hypnotic, building up with chants in tongues by the worship leader and his other vocalists. Right away I felt like I was at a Hindu, Buddhist, or New Age meeting. It was creepy to say the least. Again I prayed to God to help me have an open mind, but I was very distracted by people speaking in a deluge of tongues, and dancing around through the rows of seats. The music went on for about an hour, with the worship leader laughing and jerking uncontrollably, and chanting in tongues between singing and playing a piano. A man then came on stage to introduce a prophetess who was to bring a message from God, a prophecy that she had been given for the church. She immediately began by speaking in tongues, and calling down the glory of God into the room. By this time the congregation had been worked into a frenzy from an hour of hypnotic music and babbling tongues, and was crying out and shaking, and laughing, and crying, and screaming, and dancing, it was all going crazy at once. Again I tried to pray and ask God to help me have an open mind and discernment. It was tough to hear God, to feel God through all the chaos…but then the Spirit quickened a word to me. He reminded me of what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 14 about orderly worship. It was then that I left that “church” building as quickly as possible…"
Pastor Mike Kendall ~ The Gathering Quote used by permission for eternalpath.com.

Another firsthand account worth reading is written by Pastor Jon Speed found HERE.

Scriptures for Reference

“Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.” Psalm 119:104

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” 1 John 4:1

“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” Matthew 7:15

"At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time." Matthew 24:23-25

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” Jude 1:4

“But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.” 1 Timothy 4:1

"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep." 2 Peter 2:1-3

“I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.” Acts 20:29-30

“See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.” Colossians 2:8, 18-19

http://www.eternalpath.com/lakeland.html

Rick Warrens lie

2008-07-07T16:21:00.003-04:00

Its really scary the influence businessman Rick Warren has among the Christian community. Here is another Rick Warren video from A Little Leaven.

The Dangerous Direction Of Rick Warren

2008-07-07T16:06:00.003-04:00

A great article on Rick Warren. Well thought out with great research. Following the article is a link to the site where there are some other really fine sermons to read.

On a side note I want to emphasize Rick Warrens PEACE Plan is not, I repeat not at all about evangelizing the lost. The acronym for P was originally Planting church (which equals planting purpose driven churches-Warrens way not scripture’s way).That was changed to Promoting Reconciliation. Keep in mind that in Rwanda thousands of Purpose Driven Life were handed out instead of Bibles. Rick Warrens agenda is about Rick Warren not Jesus Christ.

Here is the article-
But first lets watch the Todd Friel U Tube video Rick Warren butchering scripture. You should watch this video once a week if you are confused about the real direction Rick Warren is going. For the record I have never heard Warren apologist Richard Abanes touch this video.

The Dangerous Direction of Rick Warren

Heritage of Faith

July 6, 2008

Just before his death, Francis Schaeffer wrote The Great Evangelical Disaster. In it he warned of mainline evangelicalism’s accommodation with theological liberalism and evolution. According to Schaeffer, the evangelical church had become a disaster, namely, by fearing to stand on the truth and contend for the faith! This trend continues as spiritual peril and confusion spread throughout America and the world. Discernment toward doctrinal error seems non-existent and the Biblical doctrine of separation from unbelievers, false teachers, and disobedient brothers is neither mentioned nor practiced.

It is my conviction that spiritual disaster is being currently promoted by Rick Warren, sometimes called “America’s Pastor.” It is my intention to look at God’s Word in light of Warren’s own words and actions so that you can see for yourself the dangers of his pastoral direction to thousands of others churches and pastors.

You might say, “Why is this important for us in NYC?” Well, for a number of reasons. First, Rick Warren has influenced over 500,000 churches with his Church Growth Conference and The Purpose Driven Church. He has further influenced nearly every Christian home in America with The Purpose Driven Life. His influence is now coming to New York City as he partners with a new initiative called, “New York City Leadership Center” and is speaking in a launching event by using his “Forty Days of Purpose” ideology. This partnership includes mega church pastor Bill Hybels and also a New Age promoter and sympathizer Ken Blanchard, along with some of the most well known churches in New York City: Christian Cultural Center, Calvary Baptist Church, and Bethel Gospel Tabernacle. It is imperative that we consider Scriptural admonitions regarding such cooperative efforts. I must issue a warning that the great evangelical disaster Francis Schaeffer warned of is moving in fast forward, and I am not going to be a part of it! I pray that you will stand firmly on the truth as well.

Let me say that I am for unity and love, but this unity must be founded upon doctrinal truth. Jesus Himself said, “To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Everyone that is of the truth heareth my voice” (John 18:37). Jesus did not unify with the Jewish religious establishment of his day, or with the Roman political power. Rather, they crucified Him. Jesus Himself teaches us that His truth is paramount to any unity of man.

Let’s start with Rick Warren’s vision and understanding of his relationship to the church today. He has said,

“I’m looking for a second reformation. The first reformation of the church 500 years ago was about beliefs. This one is going to be about behavior. The first one was about creeds. This one is going to be about deeds. It is not going to be about what does the church believe, but about what is the church doing.” [i] “I am working toward a second Reformation of the church which could create a Third Great Awakening in our nation or world.” [ii]

As Warren perceives himself to be akin to the Reformer Martin Luther or Jonathan Edwards, there are a number of frightening aspects to this statement, the first being:

1. Rick Warren Devalues Sound Doctrine

Rick Warren looks and works for a “Second Reformation” or a “Third Great Awakening” but his are empty of doctrinal content. Friends, both Martin Luther, the Reformer, and Jonathan Edwards, the great pastor of the Great Awakening, were steeped in doctrine! According to Rick, however, this new reformation or awakening will not be about doctrine or creeds but about deeds! Or, Warren’s awakening will not be based upon Jesus Christ’s atonement for sin by the shedding of His blood on the Cross for the forgiveness of sins. It will not be based on the necessity of repentance and faith to receive the precious gift of eternal life by grace alone through faith alone. Rather, it will be demonstrated through a social gospel of human works meeting human felt needs.

Failing to recognize the absolute essentiality of sound doctrine is fatal, for Paul warned that “in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils” (1 Timothy 4:1).

Contrast Warren’s statement with the ministry of the Old Testament prophets, the New Testament apostles, or the work of the first century church! The early church believed in and “continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine,” which was sound doctrine (Acts 2:42). Paul made his doctrine “fully known” and willingly suffered persecution and affliction because of it (2 Timothy 3:10-11). The early church had a clear body of doctrine and the New Testament calls this “THE FAITH” (1 Timothy 4:1; 6:12; Jude 3). They believed Jesus Christ was the virgin born Son of God who shed His blood on the cross for the sins of the world and rose bodily from the grave, and that He was coming again. The early church contended for this, called by Jude “THE FAITH”. Paul warned that “the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine: but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears” (2 Timothy 4:3, 4).

The Apostle John tells us that “many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh,” and those that “abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God”…and “if there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed” (2 John 7-11). In other words, the basis for fellowship and unity in a New Testament church was sound doctrine! We are not to join in cooperative service or a working relationship with unbelievers and false teachers (2 Corinthians 6:14-17). But Rick Warren has erased this standard and made his basis of fellowship one of behavior and deeds, and this will lead to a disastrous Reformation. How can we minimize the doctrine of the Tri-Unity of God and blood atonement when so many are attacking them and false teachers are so prevalent?

Beloved, you cannot reform or see revival in the true church without sound doctrine.

2. Rick Warren Ignores Separating from Unbelievers, Modernists, and even Terrorist Supporting States

Warren’s newest move is to institute a P.E.A.C.E.plan, an acronym that stands for Planting (and Partnering with) Churches, Equipping leaders, Assisting the poor, Caring for the sick, and Educating the next generation. On the surface, I am sure that we can all say, AMEN! It is not his idea that is wrong, but it is HOW he will fulfill this agenda that is troubling and clearly unbiblical.

Rick Warren willingly works with anyone to fulfill this plan. In a PBS interview with Charlie Rose, he says, “You don’t have to change your beliefs for us to work with you. I don’t insist that a Muslim change his belief for me to work on poverty. I don’t even insist that a gay person has to change their beliefs.” [iii]

In 2006, Warren visited the terrorist state, Syria, and gave aid and comfort to this foreign enemy of freedom and the Gospel of Christ. During his visit, Rick made no mention of “Syria’s one-party police state, its political prisoners, its chambers of torture, its support for Hezbollah terrorism in Lebanon, and its continued devotion to the destruction of Israel.” [iv] His visit turned into a propaganda bonanza for the Syrian tyrants. Joseph Farah of World Net Daily exposed Warren’s misguided visit by writing:

“But now that Rick Warren has traveled to and provided legitimacy to a hostile foreign government, presided over by a brutal fascist dictator who hates Jews, threatens Israel, subverts neighboring Lebanon, imprisons and terrorizes its own citizens and even kills them in massive numbers when they stand up in revolt – now I have to denounce this impostor in the strongest terms possible.” [v]

The “P” in his peace plan essentially means therefore that he will partner with any individual, church, religion, or even terrorist state to fulfill this goal! 2 Corinthians 6:14 says, “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?” Paul concludes, “Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you” (2 Corinthians 6:17). Rick Warren disobeys this clear command.

Consider Warren’s statement in the light of Scripture. Did Jesus enter into Jerusalem where there was poverty, disease, and illiteracy and work with either the Roman government or the Jewish religious establishment to eradicate those earthly problems? Did Jesus say to Pilate, “Let’s work together to eliminate poverty?” Or did He say to Caiaphas, “Let’s join hands, although we don’t agree on everything, to defeat illiteracy?” Preposterous thoughts! Although Jesus cared deeply about those who were suffering, he did not join with unbelievers to establish an earthly kingdom. This was not His ultimate goal, but He came to suffer on the cross for the sins of the world and rise mightily from the dead. While it is fine to help people who are destitute, we must also realize that we can never eliminate poverty. Jesus said in Matthew 26:11, “For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.”

Did the Apostles enter into a city and work with the pagans and unbelievers to care for the sick or educate the next generation? This is ludicrous! The Apostles went into a city to bring the greatest “help” offered to any man. And this is not a new suit, a meal, or a class on reading. The greatest help you can give to any man is the Gospel of Jesus Christ (Acts 16:7-11). That was the message of Paul in Philippi, Athens, Corinth, Ephesus, or Rome. The Gospel of God’s righteousness! “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek” (Romans 1:16). And it was this message that led to persecution and people hating him.

For Rick Warren to work alongside homosexuals, Muslims, and Roman Catholics and other non-Christians care more about teaching reading or math than preaching the Gospel is a very unloving thing for a preacher of the Gospel to do! Our mandate from God is to go into the world and preach the everlasting Gospel. This does not mean we ignore human suffering, for Jesus also leads us to provide material help to those in need, but this still is not our primary focus.

“For what is a man profited if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?” (Matthew 16:26).

3. Rick Warren Promotes New Age Spirituality

New Age spirituality is essentially the belief that all the world’s religions are identical at the mystical level and therefore there can be unity among them. It is based on the lie that in the “center of your being is a point of nothingness which is untouched by sin … a point of pure truth …(which) is the pure glory of God in us”, and that it in everybody, according to a popular and well know Roman Catholic mystic, Thomas Merton. [vi]

Shockingly, in his best selling books and on his web site, Rick Warren endorses those who promote and practice New Age spirituality, such as panentheism (God is in all things), mysticism, centering prayer, contemplative prayer, and spiritual formations/disciplines (New Age prayer techniques).

For example, In The Purpose Driven Church, Warren refers to many questionable movements as having a “valid message” for the church that God has used to be a “wake-up call” for the church. Among those he endorses are Richard Foster and Dallas Willard, both of whom practice and promote the “Spiritual formations movement.” [vii] In Richard Foster’s popular book, Celebration of Discipline, there are eleven references to Thomas Merton (quoted above) [viii]

In The Purpose Driven Life Rick Warren enlarges his endorsement of New Age spirituality by citing a Roman Catholic mystic and Carmelite monk named Brother Lawrence as a person we should emulate in prayer. [ix] Brother Lawrence used a form of prayer that made him “dance violently like a madman” when he went into the “presence.” [x] The Carmelite order of monks was heavily influenced by Teresa of Avila whose own thinking was affected by Jewish Kabbalistic mysticism. [xi]

Warren recommends reading another Roman Catholic priest and mystic, Henri Nouwen, by promoting his books on his web site. Henri Nouwen teaches: “The God who dwells in our inner sanctuary is also the God who dwells in the inner sanctuary of each human being.” [xii] That is a bold-faced lie against the truth! A true shepherd should protect the sheep from the statements of such wolves in sheep’s clothing. At the end of his life, Nouwen taught that “all paths lead to God.” [xiii]

In an article on his website entitled “Pastors need Solitude, Refreshment to Prepare for Ministry,” the author quotes Thomas Merton, who is a clear practitioner of New Age spirituality, and then he gives very clear New Age advice for prayer: [xiv]

“The power of silence and solitude has been recognized throughout the history of spiritual formation. It is the purposeful separation of ourselves from the world in order to place ourselves with God. The evil one assaults our senses with the material world to drown out the distant chords of eternity’s symphony. Only in silence can we move past the deafening roar of the world and hear the music of God.” [xv]

Some of these expressions like “power of silence and solitude” and “spiritual formation” seem innocent, but they are phrases straight out of the New Age lexicon. The New Age movement teaches that God is in everyone and everyone is in God, and through silence, meditative trances, mystical experiences, breath prayers, centering prayers, and contemplative prayers, you can find what Thomas Merton himself said is that “point of nothingness which is untouched by sin” where “the pure glory of God (is) in us. It is in everybody.” That is a lie of the grandest order that undermines the truth of God, the Person, and work of Jesus Christ to redeem us on the cross.

Yet, these authors along with their ideas are promoted as commonplace in Rick Warren’s pastors.com web site (see www.pastors.com). Take a simple visit there and search names like Robert Schuller, Brennan Manning, Richard Foster, Thomas Merton, Dallas Willard, Tricia Rhodes and Henri Nouwen. All these writers promote varied forms of New Age spirituality. Galatians 1:6-9 clearly tell us to not give honor to anyone who preaches another Gospel. “As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:9).

4. Rick Warren Associates with False Prophets

Rick Warren’s close association with Robert Schuller is well documented. For many years, Warren has yoked together with Schuller’s church growth conferences as a learner and a leader. Robert Schuller is heavily influenced by eastern religions, positive thinking, and is a false prophet in every sense of the word, denying original sin and the absolute need for forgiveness through Christ’s atoning blood.

In 1997, Warren spoke at Schuller’s Institute for Successful Church Leadership. With Warren present, more than eighty gay and lesbian pastors and lay leaders from the Metropolitan Community Churches participated. (Bill Hybels also spoke at that conference.)

How can a good shepherd sit down with such wolves? Jesus tells us to “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves” (Matthew 7:15). Paul warned the Ephesian pastors that after he departed “grievous wolves” would enter among them, “not sparing the flock” (Acts 20:29). Through the ministry of Rick Warren, false teaching is dripping into the evangelical world like an IV hooked up to a dying patient.

5. Rick Warren Uses Perversions of Scripture and pretends they are True

Let’s consider just one glaring example among many bad paraphrases that Warren chooses to use in his sermons and books. Warren quotes Ephesians 4:6 in The Purpose Driven Life from a modern perversion, New Century Version, that says of our God, “He rules everything and is everywhere and is in everything” (Ephesians 4:6). Here New Age teaching creeps into a perverted Bible translation! [xvi] That God is in everything is the lie at the heart of all New Age teaching. The Bible does not teach that God is in everyone, but that He indwells believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. This is also the offense of the cross that Warren seems so unwilling to accept! It could very well be that Warren uses this verse on purpose, to gain national popularity and he has been heavily influenced by Robert Schuller, who also is clearly immersed in New Age, or Eastern theology.[xvii] Warren also repeatedly quotes the notoriously deficient paraphrase “The Message” by Eugene Peterson.

Perhaps Rick Warren has been reading and quoting modern perversions for so long, that doctrine has become unimportant to him, for these perversions water down the truth until it is hardly recognizable.

6. Rick Warren Wrongly Divides the Scripture

Warren’s usage of various translations allows him to make the Bible say what he wants it to say rather than what it really says. In the following excerpt from The Purpose Driven Life, Warren quotes three people: Isaiah, Job, and Dr. Bernie Siegel. According to Warren, Isaiah and Job, both great and godly men are living “without God and without purpose.” Dr. Siegel, however, understands hope and purpose, and he is a leading New Age author and spokesman! [xviii] Here is Warren’s twisted comment which makes Dr. Siegel more spiritual than either Job or Isaiah:

Without God, life has no purpose, and without purpose, life has no meaning. Without meaning, life has no significance or hope. In the Bible, many different people expressed this hopelessness. Isaiah complained, “I have labored to no purpose; I have spent my strength in vain and for nothing.” Job said, “My life drags by – day after hopeless day” and “I give up; I am tired of living. Leave me alone. My life makes no sense.” The greatest tragedy is not death, but life without purpose.

Hope is as essential to your life as air and water. You need hope to cope. Dr. Bernie Siegel found he could predict which of his cancer patients would go into remission by asking, “Do you want to live to be one hundred?” Those with a deep sense of life purpose answered yes and were the ones most liketly to survive. Hope comes from having a purpose.” [xix]

First, hope does not come from merely a purpose, but hope comes from our God and Lord Jesus Christ as we wait for eternal life. Hope in God, dear friends, not merely a purpose! (Psalm 42:5; 1 Timothy 1:1; Titus 1:2; Romans 15:13; 1 Thessalonians 5: . Secondly, Warren does not quote the context of those passages in Isaiah and Job but only the parts that suit his purpose, not God’s! Isaiah was not “without purpose,” but he was struggling with the fact that while he was doing God’s will, no one seemed to be listening to his message. Isaiah was faithful, but he was discouraged by seeing little outward success. The rest of the verse in Isaiah 49:4 clearly shows that Isaiah was not questioning his purpose. In fact, he draws upon God for great comfort and encouragement. While Warren indicates that Isaiah had “no purpose” or was living “without meaning,” Isaiah actually says:

“I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God” (Isaiah 49:4).

Warren failed to quote the whole verse! Isaiah commits the labor of his life to God by realizing it was God’s cause and work and God would reward him in due time. Isaiah 49:5 continues Isaiah’s encouraging words as he says:

“Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.”

Perhaps Rick Warren should consider that the size of a movement or church has nothing to do with whether something is faithful to God!

Warren Smith in Deceived on Purposeinsightfully writes: “Rick Warren could have wonderfully introduced hope and purpose through the godly lives of Isaiah and Job, but he chose to use them as examples of men who were without hope, purpose, or God in their lives. Instead, he used a New Age leader (Dr. Siegel) to preface his remarks about having a true hope that comes from having a “deep sense of purpose.” [xx] I don’t know about you, but this heightens my sense of righteous indignation in that a so-called Pastor would so disgrace God’s men and use a New Ager as an example for us!

These are just a few of the troubling aspects of the ministry of Rick Warren. Warren mocks Fundamentalism and has said, “There aren’t that many Fundamentalists left in America.” [xxi] May I remind Rick Warren that “might does not make right?” Although Warren may interpret God’s blessing in terms of numbers, God never does. [xxii] There were not many who got into Noah’s Ark. There were not many who accepted the prophetic statements of Isaiah or Jeremiah. There were not many following Jesus when He went to the cross! Nevertheless, there are still some very godly, balanced, loving, and doctrinally sound Biblical fundamentalists and churches throughout our nation, and there is still this one, and as long as God allows, I will contend for the holiness of God and the purity of the Gospel. Friends, we are not living in a day of a new Reformation, but in the last days of perilous apostasy. Let us beware and be wise, staying close to Jesus Christ in rightly dividing His Word until He comes again!

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[i]Interview by David Kuo with Rick Warren, accessed July 1, 2008, (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/177/story_17718.html)

[ii] From Pew Forum, May 23, 2005, “Myths of the Modern Mega Church,” an interview with Rick Warren, accessed July 1, 2008 at http://pewforum.org/events/?EventID=80.

(Note: This is a long article but it shows Warren as currying favor with those who are the intellectuals in our pop culture. The only group on earth that I can find Warren denounce are Bible believing fundamentalists!)

[iii] Roger Oakland, Faith Undone(Silverton, OR: Lighthouse Trails Publishing), p. 146,147.

[iv] Joseph Farah, World Net Daily, accessed July 3, 2008 at

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=38899.

[v] Joseph Farah, World Net Daily, accessed July 3, 2008at http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=38897.

[vi]Ray Yungen, Time of Departing(Silverton, OR: Lighthouse Trails Publishing Company), p. 58-59.

(Note: This book is very helpful in relating “How Ancient Mystical practices are uniting Christians with the World’s religions. It also contains a glossary of terms being used by the proponents of these new age mystical practices)

[vii] Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Church, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1995), p.126-127.

[viii]Ray Yungen, Time of Departing, p.72.

[ix] Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Life,(Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2002), p.88,

[x] Brother Lawrence, The Practice of the Presence of God, translated by John Delaney,( Image Books, 1977), p. 34.

[xi]Ray Yungen, A Time of Departing(Silverton, OR: Lighthouse Trails Publishing Company), p.146-147.

[xii] Roger Oakland, Faith Undone (Silverton, OR: Lighthouse Trails Publishing Company), p. 89-90.

(Note: This book is outstanding in dealing with the mystical practices of the emerging church, exposing it not as a “new reformation but an end-time deception.”)

[xiii] Ibid, p. 100.

[xiv] Ibid, p.164, Thomas Merton also said, ‘We are already one. But we imagine that we are not.”

[xv] Accessed July 1, 2008 from an article entitled, “Pastors Need Solitude and Refreshment,” (http://www.pastors.com/RWMT/?ID=242&artid=9044&expand=1).

[xvi] Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Life, p.88.

[xvii] Warren Smith, Deceived on Purpose: The New Age Implications of the Purpose Driven Church (Mountain Stream Press, 2004), p.79-86.

(Note: This book is helpful because Warren Smith was formerly involved in the New Age movement and picks up on New Age mystical terminology creeping into evangelical writings that one not exposed to the movement could easily miss.)

[xviii] Ibid, p.48-51.

[xix] The Purpose Driven Life, p.30-31.

[xx] Deceived on Purpose, p.51.

[xxi] From Pew Forum, May 23, 2005, “Myths of the Modern Mega Church,” an interview with Rick Warren, accessed July 1, 2008 at http://pewforum.org/events/?EventID=80.

[xxii]From an article entitled, “The Gospel According to Hybels and Warren,” accessed June 26, 2008 at http://www.biblebb.com/files/gathw.htm.

Note: Nathan Busenitz does an excellent job in exposing Warren’s man-centered and pragmatic emphasis in preaching the Gospel.

Heritage Baptist Church, New York City, New York

http://hbcnyc.org/manuscript_titles.htm

This Is Rich

2008-07-01T20:02:00.003-04:00

Actually it wasn't Rich but Richard Abanes self proclaimed apologist who recently defined the word mentor for on another website.

Here was the definition of mentor-

MENTOR - “A wise and trusted counselor or teacher.” “An individual who provides independent support and advice to enable the candidate to realize their full potential and help establish their career.” “The critical role and responsibility assumed by an experienced and wise educator who agrees to help, build a relationship with, and facilitate the professional growth of one or more proteges. Mentors are to be models of effective teaching and of a very visible desire to continue to grow professionally, every day, and throughout the career.” “A trusted counsellor or guide.” “Person who acts as an adviser to a learner, especially used in work-place learning environments. The activity is called mentoring.”

It has been asked why I tie Rick Warren in with Todd Bentley. Well they both share the same mentor and teacher which is C. Peter Wagner.

Rick listed C Peter Wagner as his mentor here-

Rick Warren wrote his doctoral dissertation at Fuller Seminary on his church growth ideas. His mentor was C. Peter Wagner! Here is a copy of the FirstSearch Dissertations Abstracts listing:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: NEW CHURCHES FOR A NEW GENERATION: CHURCH PLANTING TO REACH BABY BOOMERS. A CASE STUDY: THE SADDLEBACK VALLEY COMMUNITY CHURCH (CALIFORNIA)
Author(s): WARREN, RICHARD DUANE
Degree: D.MIN.
Year: 1993
Pages: 00413
Institution: FULLER THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY, DOCTOR OF MINISTRY PROGRAM; 0790
Advisor: Mentor: C. PETER WAGNER

You can read more on Rick Warrens connection to C. Peter Wagner and other false teachers here http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac23.htm

Now it will be interesting to see if Richard Abanes will try to redefine the word mentor again since his pal Rick listed C. Peter Wagner as his mentor.

I'm sure though Abanes won't touch this though.

The same way he doesnt touch Warren's association with David (Paul) Yonggi Cho, Ken Blanchard and others that can't be easily explained away or spun.

And Richard complains when other's don't answer his questions.

Richard never answers the hard question's.

So thats kinda like the pot calling the kettle black.

Talk about a lack of discernment.

Peace

Tim

Oprah Winfrey Logic and Discernment

2008-06-30T19:42:00.000-04:00

I stumbled on this over at Phoenix Preacher and thought the article was interesting and said a lot about Michael Newnham and his ability to discern.

Here is the link to that article http://phoenixpreacher.com/cms/?p=3075

Here are a couple gems from that article.

"Bernard was a Catholic monk…and a mystic.
He also is probably more responsible for the cult of Mary in Catholicism today than any other father.
However, along with these and other dogmas that both the Reformers rejected, Bernard wrote some of the seminal theology that evolved into the doctrine of justification that we hold to in Protestantism today.
While both men quoted more frequently from Augustine than any other father, Bernard was quoted often and was commended highly by both men.
He was also held by both not only to be a brother, but a "doctor" in the church"

Luther and Calvin could affirm Bernard as a brother and glean from his work that which was good and biblical without embracing everything he wrote.
A true, mature believer can glean from all of the above as well as Warren, Henri Nouwen, Richard Foster and the rest of the brethren that the asses never stop braying at.
The one incident I'm most ashamed of that happened here was when I jumped on Rolph for recommending Nouwen…then read with wonder Nouwen's "Prodigal Son".
I was immature and ignorant and proud of both.
That in my opinion, is the perpetual state of most of the "discernment ministries".
Unfortunately, it's too often my state as well.
If Luther and Calvin can practice a "generous orthodoxy"…we should too. end quote

And of course read the whole article so you can be sure I am not taking Michael out of context with the two quotes I am using.

I also think its a natural transition for many in the Reformed/Calvinist crowd (not all though) to start to join with the Emergent church and those authors that Emergents promote. And I think Michael himself states the reasons why.

To me this is a Oprah Winfrey style of logic that lacks serious discernment and let me explain why. Oprah as well states that she is a Christian. She also has stated that she does not believe that Jesus could not possibly be the only way. Oprah would agree that we could learn lots of things from good people as she exposes many people to her new age ideas.

So since Oprah states she is a Christian it must be ok to go with whoever she endorses. We may not agree with everything that person states but Im sure we may find something good in what they have to offer.

That is Oprah Winfrey logic.

Now I sincerely do not believe that Oprah is a Christian and I have no reason to believe that Michael Newnman is not a Christian.

But Michael could very easily expose a Christian to very real danger the same way his pal Richard Abanes does.

So Michael thinks that we discernment ministries are immature and ignorant because we caution against new age forms of spirituality and prayer that are outside of scripture?

I guess then its smart to state for Christians that they can learn a little something from anyone who calls him or herself a Christian.

That may stroke the intellict but will it make them grow as a Christian?

Or will it open them up to dangerous new age ideas?

You decide.

You could use this type of logic to justify gleaning from anyone lets take a look at Henri Nouwen first.

From my friend and brother in the Lord Ray Yungen's book "A Time Of Departing"

An individual who has gained popularity and respect in Christian circles, akin to that of Thomas Merton, is the now deceased [Roman] Catholic theologian Henri Nouwen… Many pastors and professors are greatly attracted to his deep thinking. In fact, one of his biographers revealed that in a 1994 survey of 3,400 U.S. Protestant church leaders, Nouwen ranked second only to Billy Graham… (61)

Unfortunately, this widely read and often-quoted author, at the end of his life, stated in clear terms that he approached God from a universalistic view. He proclaimed: “Today I personally believe that Jesus came to open the door to God’s house, all human beings can walk through that door, whether they know about Jesus or not. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her way to God.” (Nouwen, Sabbatical Journey, p.51)

Nouwen’s endorsement of a book by Hindu spiritual teacher Elnath Easwaran, teaching mantra meditation, further illustrates his universalistic sympathies. On the back cover, Nouwen stated, “This book has helped me a great deal.” (62)

Nouwen was clearly a universalist who also struggled in some other areas of life. No matter what the guy wrote why would a Christian wanted to glean off a universalist.

Then there is Richard Foster who endorses the new age form of prayer called contemplative prayer.

Foster states that there are certain styles of prayer that you need to use caution.

Where in the Bible does it state this?

Where in the Bible does it state that certain types of prayer are not for the novice.

Here is some real words of caution from my brother in the Lord Roger Oakland.

"Contemplative Prayer or Terror?"
Proponents of contemplative prayer say the purpose of contemplative prayer is to tune in with God and hear His voice. However, Richard Foster claims that practitioners must use caution. He admits that in contemplative prayer "we are entering deeply into the spiritual realm" and that sometimes it is not the realm of God even though it is "supernatural." He admits there are spiritual beings and that a prayer of protection should be said beforehand something to the effect of "All dark and evil spirits must now leave."1 Where in Scripture do we find such a prayer? Where in witchcraft?
I wonder if all these Christians who now practice contemplative prayer are following Foster's advice. Whether they are or not, they have put themselves in spiritual harm's way. Nowhere in Scripture are we required to pray a prayer of protection before we pray. The fact that Foster recognizes contemplative prayer is dangerous and opens the door to the fallen spirit world is very revealing. What is this--praying to the God of the Bible but instead reaching demons? Maybe contemplative prayer should be renamed contemplative terror.
While Foster has said repeatedly that contemplative prayer is for everyone, he contradicts himself when he says it is only for a select group and not for the "novice."2 He says not everyone is ready and equipped to listen to God's voice through the "all embracing silence."3
This is amazing. Foster admits that contemplative prayer is dangerous and will possibly take the participant into demonic realms, but he gives a disclaimer saying not everyone is ready for it. My question is, who is ready, and how will they know they are ready? What about all the young people in the emerging church movement? Are they ready? Or are they going into demonic altered states of consciousness completely unaware? Given Foster's admission of the danger, he does great damage when he says: "We should all, without shame, enroll in the school of contemplative prayer."4
Foster's implication that some contemplative prayer is safe is terribly mistaken. No contemplative prayer is biblical or safe--even the most mature of the Christian mystical leaders proved susceptible to its demonic pull. Thomas Merton at the end of his life said he wanted to be the best Buddhist he could be. Henri Nouwen at the end of his life said all paths lead to God. This was the spiritual fruit of their lives after years of practicing mystical prayer.

[In relation to mysticism and contemplative prayer], the real question is whether or not the realm of the silence is God's realm or Satan's--light or darkness. The Bible tells us that Satan is very deceptive, and what can often look good is not good at all:

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness. (II Corinthians 11:14-15)

The word occultism means hidden or secret. There are two connotations to this. The first level involves employment of these practices themselves. Throughout human history, mystical techniques were used by only a small number of persons. The terms esoteric and arcane are often used to signify the fact that these practices have been traditionally concealed. Occult methods almost always employ the use of altered states of consciousness induced by prolonged focus and repetition--a practice that has largely been unknown to many ... until now!
A second and perhaps more important concept agrees that behind the physical world lies a hidden reality, and we can interact and have a relationship with this hidden spiritual realm. Occult practitioners in every age and every country agree that all of creation is connected together and God is in all of creation--thus, all is God. These two definitions sum up occultism succinctly. The contemplative prayer movement conforms to these aspects of occultism to the letter.
It is for this very reason I have devoted an entire chapter of Faith Undone to contemplative spirituality. Mystical practices have entered the church through these ancient Christian mystics (ancient wisdom), and they have become the driving force of the emerging church. (from chapter 6, Faith Undone by Roger Oakland)
In conclusion I find it interestin to see ober at the Phoenix Preacher myself and my fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord are constantly accused of hate speech by Michael and Abanes.
Funny how that works isnt it.
They can use hate speech when speaking about us. Cor 13 totally ignored.
But yet we point out error or disagree with Rick Warren and instantly we hate Rick Warren or some other misguided soul.
I dont hate anyone.
So to the other camp disagreement=hate speech.
Well let it be so.
What good for us isnt good for them.
Michael also has commented that I dont let certain comments or posts fly.
He is correct.
My blog I choose what goes up.
Richard Abanes does the same thing but thats ok I guess since its Richard.
You see Michael I guess the rules only apply for those you choose at your discretion.
And the rules often change.
So in conclusion folks you will need to decide who is being immature and ignorant.
Michael has told my friend and brother in the Lord Bud Press to "bleep off" after Bud made a appeal to Richard Abanes to keep his word to Bud after Richard asked Bud for information on Ken Blanchard.
Yup that was real mature.
Does Michael sound like he uses's biblical logic and discernment?
Or does Michael use Oprah Winfrey Logic and Discernment?
As for my brothers and sisters in the Lord in discernement ministries I know the truth will always defend itself.
peace
Tim Wirth
Here are some more interesting links on what Michael bought up in his article
http://www.ctsfw.edu/library/files/pb/1220
http://www.timenloe.net/wordpress/?p=416
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2065/is_n3_v48/ai_18709945
Also some other links that give a background to contemplative proponents and its origins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Mysticism_in_Ancient_Africa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Fathers
And this is also where I think this all could be going
http://www.angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/Buddhism_to_Orthodoxy.htm
All this is not really new to Christianity its just a lie repackaged.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism
Im done now
Peace
Tim

Todd Bentley is not of God folks

2008-06-27T15:12:00.001-04:00

Im sorry for those of you out there who dont get this and are still calling this demonic nonsense a Christian revival.
This is not of God folks. At least not of the God I worship
Here is a very scary video-

Rick Warrens mentor C. Peter Wagner commissions Todd Bentley

2008-06-27T14:08:00.007-04:00

Rick Warrens mentor C. Peter Wagner commissioned Todd Bentley for the Prophetic and Apostolic ministry. Video of this event is at the end of this article.

Rick Warren wrote his doctoral dissertation at Fuller Seminary on his church growth ideas. His mentor was C. Peter Wagner! Here is a copy of the FirstSearch Dissertations Abstracts listing:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: NEW CHURCHES FOR A NEW GENERATION: CHURCH PLANTING TO REACH BABY BOOMERS. A CASE STUDY: THE SADDLEBACK VALLEY COMMUNITY CHURCH (CALIFORNIA)
Author(s): WARREN, RICHARD DUANE
Degree: D.MIN.
Year: 1993
Pages: 00413
Institution: FULLER THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY, DOCTOR OF MINISTRY PROGRAM; 0790
Advisor: Mentor: C. PETER WAGNER
Source: DAI, 54, no. 03A, (1993): 0967
Abstract: One out of every three Americans alive today was born during the eighteen year period between 1947 and 1964. These 74,000,000 adults are the Baby Boom Generation. Today the youngest of the Baby Boomers is 24 and the oldest is 41 years old. In addition to being the largest generation of Americans, Baby Boomers are unique in their attitudes, values, and lifestyles. There are significant cultural differences between the Baby Boomer and the generations that both precede and follow them.
A People magazine survey found that only 11% of Baby Boomers regularly attend church. The basic argument of this dissertation is that most Baby Boomers will never be reached by traditional churches. We must establish new churches to reach this new generation of Americans. It will require new churches that understand the Baby Boom mindset and are intentionally designed to meet their needs, tastes, and interests.

During the past thirteen years, I have been researching, testing, and implementing principles and programs to reach Baby Boomers. I began the Saddleback Valley Community Church in January, 1980 in my home with my wife and the first family I met when I moved to the area. My target was to reach Baby Boomers. Today, the church averages about 6,000 in attendance. Over 50% of the members are Baby Boomers and nearly 70% were saved and baptized at the church.

Our church has sponsored 20 daughter churches since it began. In each of these new churches we have used the same strategy with good results. I believe the strategy we're developing at Saddleback is reproducible in other new church starts.

SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: RELIGION, CLERGY
EDUCATION, RELIGIOUS
THEOLOGY
Accession No: AAG9320131
Database: Dissertations
source http://op.50megs.com/ditc/addendumNAR.html
Saddleback Church promotes and endorses C. Peter Wagners book "Your Spiritual Gifts can help your church grow" here on saddlebacks website as part of there SHAPE class 301
here http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/ministry/images/discoverytool.pdf

Warren did his D.MIN. in 1993 under Peter Wagner at Fuller NEW CHURCHES FOR A NEW GENERATION: CHURCH PLANTING TO REACH BABY BOOMERS. A CASE STUDY: THE SADDLEBACK VALLEY COMMUNITY CHURCH (California). In it he wrote “We must establish new churches to reach this new generation of Americans. It will require new churches that understand the Baby Boom mindset and are intentionally designed to meet their needs, tastes, and interests.”

Ministry Advantage at Fuller features articles from various “Christian leaders” Warren is listed among others like Ted Haggard, Jack Hayford, Bill Hybels, Peter Wagner, John Wimber etc. (http://www.fuller.edu/cll/ce/ma_writers.html)

All this means Fuller sees him as being in agreement with these men and what they are teaching. Peter Wagner who taught at Fuller optimized his vision of church growth with executing a new Church government, ie. new apostles and prophets laying a new foundation for today (ICA).

Peter Wagner, is the Founder and President of the American Society For Church Growth (ASCG). Rick Warren is a member of the American Society For Church Growth (ASCG) which is located at Fuller Theological Seminary. http://www.ascg.org/links.htm Saddleback Valley Community Church.

Rick Warren, Founding Pastor (ASCG member at large) is found alongside many names which includes Global Harvest Ministries of C. Peter Wagner, Founder, President (the ASCG Founding President); The World Prayer Center C. Peter Wagner, Co-founder.

“Saddleback Community Church senior pastor Rick Warren is on Mission America's Facilitation Committee [http://www.missionamerica.org/leaders.html 1997].

A person does not become part of a board unless they are in agreement with the doctrines and philosophy of ministry of those who are part of the board.

Source http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac23.htm

Should all this surprise us?
Of course not.

Rick Warren himself states ""I see absolutely zero reason in separating my fellowship from anybody," he said.

source http://www.biblicalrecorder.org/content/news/2005/7_28_2005/ne280705warren.shtml

And Warren has proved this time and time again with his associations with false teachers like Paul Yonggi Cho, Ken Copeland, Benny Hinn and the like.
Warren even spoke at the Azuza Street Centinnel. Warren continuely associates with new age sympathizers like Ken Blanchard and new ager Len Sweet.
False apostles and prophets like C Peter Wagner and his bunch.

More on this here
http://www.cephas-library.com/purposedriven/purposedriven_communication_between_j.sundquist_and_aog_k.burtram_and_g.felton.html

Here is the video of Rick Warrens mentor C. Peter Wagner commissioning false revival minister Todd Bentley.
People have asked me why I have linked Warren with Bentley.
Fair question its because they have in common a mentor who they both gleaned from in C. Peter Wagner.
How much poison does it take to kill my friends?
Here is the video

Peace
Tim
More to come Im sure

A comment from "When a church goes astray"

2008-06-24T12:29:00.003-04:00

This comment was so well thought out and good I decided to post it as a article for all to see. Tim

It’s a depressing statistic. A majority of Western churches do not see a single addition through conversion in a typical year. So to try and turn things round many are rejecting traditional methods of evangelism and adopting a new ‘church growth’ model. Market research has convinced them that unbelievers stay away from church not because they reject Christ, but because they reject the church’s boring presentation of Christ. There’s no need to change the product – just the packaging – and the crowds will come flocking back.

The new packaging is all about replacement. A ‘stage’ with a moveable Perspex lectern replaces the old wooden pulpit. PowerPoint graphics replace the hymn books. A rock band replaces the organ. A casually dressed and jovial audience replaces the reverent congregation. A charming minister in a t-shirt and jeans replaces the suited ‘preacher’. Fun replaces holiness as the tone of the service. Loud music, side-splitting drama, multimedia presentations and a humorous ‘talk’ replace hymn singing and preaching. But, we’re confidently assured, the message remains the same.

Judging by numbers alone the new model has certainly proved a success. Prominent ‘church growth’ pastors like Robert Schuller (Crystal Cathedral, LA), Rick Warren (Saddleback Church, California), Bill Hybels (Willow Creek Church, Chicago) and Joel Osteen (Lakewood Church, Houston) attract thousands to their churches each Sunday. Though a majority of this ‘growth’ occurs by transfer rather than ‘conversion’, multitudes of other churches have adopted this model and have seen their congregations rocket numerically. Small wonder anyone questioning the movement is told, “Never criticise what God is blessing.”1 Truth never stood a chance against success.

How widespread is this new phenomenon? Consider this fact; over 400,000 pastors from 162 countries have been trained under Rick Warren’s church growth seminar material alone. (Warren calls his philosophy a “stealth movement flying beneath the radar that’s changing literally thousands of churches around the world ”). His book The Purpose Driven Church, which espouses this new philosophy, has sold over 1 million copies in 20 languages and is a standard textbook in hundreds of Bible Colleges. Yet despite the incredible popularity of Rick Warren and others like him, there are numerous problems with the church growth movement, starting with its history.

Problem 1 — The Origin and History of the Movement

The father of the church growth movement was the relatively unknown Donald McGavran. His best known student and successor at the Fuller School of World Mission in California was C. Peter Wagner, a founding member of the Lausanne Committee on World Evangelization. Wagner, a close friend of the late John Wimber (Vineyard), calls himself an apostle and is one of the world’s leading promoters of charismatic ‘signs and wonders’. From Fuller Seminary the church growth philosophy spread worldwide.

The first pastor to ‘make it big’ using modern church growth techniques was Robert Schuller. “An indisputed fact is that I am the founder, really, of the church-growth movement in this country...I advocated and launched what has become known as the marketing approach in Christianity.”2 How did he do it? “The secret of winning unchurched people into the church is really quite simple. Find out what would impress the nonchurched in your community [then give it to them].”2 Yet Schuller is a false teacher of huge proportions. An unashamed universalist, he rejects Jesus as the only way to heaven. He states that making people aware of their lost and sinful condition is the very worst thing a preacher can do. As for the new birth, to Schuller it simply means changing from a negative to a positive self-image.

Schuller’s landmark 1975 book Your Church Has Real Possibilities impressed Warren and Hybles who both visited Schuller to learn more. Hybels called his first meeting with Schuller a “divine encounter.”3 Kay Warren, Rick’s wife, said that Schuller had a “profound influence” on Rick, who was “captivated by his positive appeal to unbelievers.”4 Warren has since shared the platform at several of Schuller’s leadership conferences and an endorsement by Schuller appears at the beginning of Warren’s book The Purpose Driven Church: “I’m praying that every pastor will read this book...Rick Warren is the one all of us should listen to and learn from.” Today Warren, Hybels and Schuller all operate their churches on the same market-driven principles.

Problem 2 — The Business-Church Marriage

The second major problem with the church growth movement is its love-affair with the business world. Warren, who partners with marketing agencies like CMS in Covina, California, a company that helps giants like Isuzu Motors and Quaker Oats “grow their businesses,”5 follows the advice of secular business guru Peter Drucker, with whom he has engaged in a bi-annual consultation for 20 years. The focus of Drucker’s recent consulting has been to teach churches and charities to behave more like corporations and Warren has adapted many of his ideas.6 For instance, the Drucker Foundation has a ‘Self-Assessment Tool’ for business leaders. Warren has a ‘Health Assessment Tool’ for readers of his Purpose Driven Life. Anyone familiar with the ideas promoted in business books will easily spot their cloned ‘Christian’ versions all through Warren’s writings. Forbes Magazine publisher, Rich Karlgaard said of The Purpose Driven Church, “This is one of the greatest entrepreneurial books I’ve ever read, and if you merely substitute the word ‘business’ for ‘church’, it’s just a terrific guide that can be taken to a secular and business audience.”7 Bob Buford, founder of the Leadership Network in Dallas, Texas, has spent over 20 years integrating Drucker’s business ideas into churches. Another friend of Warren and Hybels, Buford calls himself “the legs for his [Drucker’s] brain.”8

Compare all of this to Paul’s pivotal message to the Ephesian elders in Acts 20. He mentions nothing about marketing, growing or adapting. Instead he warns them to teach the whole counsel of God, to beware of false teachers and to preach the gospel of faith and repentance - which introduces the third major problem in the church growth movement, the corruption of the gospel message.

Problem 3 — The Dumbing Down of the Message

Church growth advocate Lee Strobel recommends reaching ‘un-churched Harry and Mary’ by starting with their ‘felt needs’. (Rather than with righteousness, self-control and judgment to come as Paul did with Felix in Acts 24). Thus “If you discover that unchurched Harry suffers from a sagging self-esteem...you can tell him how your own self-esteem has soared ever since you learned how much you matter to God.”9 Or if he’s a thrill seeker tell him there’s “nothing more exciting, more challenging and more adventure packed than living as a devoted follower of Jesus Christ.”10 In other words, discover what a sinner wants out of life and give it to him ‘in Jesus’. In a chapter in The Purpose Driven Church entitled ‘How Jesus Attracted Crowds’, Rick Warren states: “The most likely place to start is with the person’s felt needs...this was the approach Jesus used...A good salesman knows you always start with the customer’s needs, not the product.”11 In the previous chapter Warren claims, “Whenever Jesus encountered a person he’d begin with their hurts, needs, and interests.”12 Yet simply noting how the Lord dealt with Nicodemus, the rich young ruler, the Syrophenician woman and Levi, to name but a few, shows Warren’s selective exegesis to be very misleading.

Christians have always known that when witnessing to different types of individuals from diverse backgrounds it is useful to understand the presuppositions they bring to the table and adjust one’s approach accordingly. Clearly the Lord dealt with Nicodemus differently than with the woman at the well. Again, Paul addressed the Jews in Acts 13 differently to the Greeks on Mars Hill in Acts 17. So why all the fuss about Warren? Because Warren is not simply recommending that preachers bear their audience’s background in mind; he is advocating a total change in the technique, style and form of historical evangelical preaching, and he’ll even twist scripture to make his point. He favours a rendering of Col 4:5-6 which reads: “Be tactful to those who are not Christians...Talk to them agreeably and with a flavour of wit, and try to fit your answers to the needs of each one.”13 Yet the context of this passage is not about public preaching and the translation Warren favours is not in the least bit accurate to the original Greek text.

While no pastor would ever admit to watering down the gospel message, that is exactly what has resulted from preaching this kind of positive needs-orientated sermons that entertain and amuse. For instance, an evaluation of Hybels’ preaching reveals that in a typical month three out of four weekend messages are about God’s love. A mere 7% of messages mention God’s holiness. The truth of God’s wrath against mankind’s sin is virtually never heard.14 What isn’t preached is more revealing than what is.

Concluding their weak gospel presentations, many church growth preachers lead their audience in a model ‘sinner’s prayer’. Warren advises sinners that, “Real life begins by committing yourself completely to Jesus Christ. If you are not sure you have done this, all you need to do is receive and believe...bow your head and quietly whisper the prayer that will change your eternity: ‘Jesus I believe in you and I receive you.’ Go ahead. If you sincerely meant that prayer, congratulations! Welcome to the family of God.”15 No conviction of sin, no repentance, no forsaking of the sinner’s way, no counting the cost – just ‘accept and receive’ and the job’s done. Do these false teachers actually understand the true need of the sinner? Clearly not, for sinful man’s first and greatest need is repentance (not self-esteem as Schuller teaches). Man needs salvation from sin, deliverance from wrath and cleansing from guilt. The ‘consumer’ is actually a rebellious unclean sinner who, far from being ‘always right’, is always wrong. He doesn’t feel his need for the ‘product’ because he is spiritually dead. He only thinks he loves God and wants a relationship with Jesus, but actually he knows nothing about his true sinfulness and God’s righteousness.

The true gospel is not about making people feel better about themselves, but about making people realise they are lost, guilty and perishing. It does not attempt to bring people to Christ to meet their felt needs - rather it proclaims forgiveness and justification to meet their real need if they will repent and trust alone in Christ. A product that exposes sin, condemns pride and strips away self-righteousness can never be ‘marketed’. It is foolishness to the lost (1 Cor 1:18). Yet the new gospel is being presented as an attractive item to the sinner because it liberates his self esteem, fills his emptiness, gives him an exciting life, meets his needs and heals his hurts.

In the false gospel of the church growth movement the sinner is told that Christ died for him because he is so valuable to God. But this is a denial of grace. There is nothing in us to merit God’s love. Again, the idea that the sinner is friendly towards God but just turned off by the church is a denial of human depravity. Man is an enemy of God, alienated in his mind by wicked works (Col 1:21). Yet the false gospel says, “You may not believe in God, but God believes in you and you need to believe in yourself.” (The Bible says that Jesus did not believe in His hearers, John 2:24).

Problem 4 — Employing a Worldly Approach

The fourth problem with the ‘purpose driven church’ is its creation of a worldly ethos within the four walls of ‘the sanctuary’ in order to make the church more appealing to the world. Apparently since unchurched Harry has to dress smartly at the office all week, he insists on the casual look at weekends. To make him feel comfortable the saints must remove their respectful Sunday best and go for the casual or even the scruffy look. Then there’s the ‘music problem’. Unchurched Harry hates organs and choirs. A cappella singing makes him cringe. So, the music must be contemporary and loud. According to Warren, Saddleback exploded with growth after loud rock music made its entrance. People want to feel the music not just hear it.

Herding all the flock together three times a week for nothing more than hymn singing and Bible teaching doesn’t work anymore. Ministries, programmes and small groups must be introduced to meet people’s needs for counselling about poor self esteem, depression, infertility, singleness, weight loss, co-dependency, addictions and more.

According to Warren, providing the primary issues are in focus (Christ and His gospel) the secondary issues (the church model/methods) can be as varied as you like. What works (pragmatism) is all that matters. “I contend that when a church continues to use methods that no longer work, it is being unfaithful to Christ.”16 So just as Jesus ‘targeted’ the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Paul targeted the Gentiles and Peter targeted the Jews,17 at Saddleback Warren uses multiple venues to ‘target’ different markets. A jazz service for jazz lovers. A rock-n-roll service for rockers. Based on a mistranslation of Acts 5:42, Warren claims he’s following the apostles who provided different kinds of services in separate ‘courts’ of the temple.

Warren even claims that God enjoys rock music.18 “I reject the idea that music styles can be judged as either ‘good’ or ‘bad’...no particular style of music is ‘sacred’...There is no such thing as ‘Christian music’, only Christian lyrics.”19 Yet just as clearly as a march tune fits a military scene, jazz fits a night club scene and rock fits a festival scene, so there is a certain kind of sound that suits a prayer meeting - and it’s not the rock, rap and jazz sound that the purpose driven church has borrowed from the world. Music that has a corrupt origin, employs sensual rhythms and is accompanied by a fleshly breathy style of singing, with singers who scoop and slide from one note to another, is utterly unsuitable for the spiritual praise of God (Eph 5:19).20

Conclusion

At the root of the entire purpose driven church paradigm is a fatal misconception. As John MacArthur points out: “The notion that church meetings should be used to tantalize or attract non-Christians is a relatively recent development. Nothing like it is found in scripture; in fact, the apostle Paul spoke of unbelievers entering the assembly as an exceptional event (1 Cor 14:23).”21 In fact, the church at Jerusalem was so holy and God-fearing that nobody dared to join it (Acts 5:11). The New Testament preaching of Paul “kept back nothing” (Acts 20:20) and involved reproving, rebuking and exhorting with patience and doctrine, bearing in mind a future time when people would no longer “endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers and they will turn their ears away from the truth” (2 Tim 4:2-4). That day has surely come.

The first few decades of the church growth movement have clearly shown the naiveté of those who thought that the true gospel could survive the introduction of a marketing philosophy which says the customer is king. Does style affect substance? It actually does much more. The purpose driven style has completely subverted the true gospel message. Exposition has surrendered to entertainment, preaching to performances, doctrine to drama and theology to theatrics – and the fallout has been catastrophic.

Doctrine has been trivialised and expositional preaching abandoned, leading to the introduction of multitudes of false converts and shallow members. A former Willow Creek counsellor admitted “Willow Creek is a mile wide and one-half inch deep.”22 Those who grieve to see their churches adopt this model have been marginalized. Separation from sin, worldliness, false doctrine and false churches has been deeply compromised. Speaking of his church members an unconcerned Warren states, “Are there unrepentant pagans mixed into Saddleback’s crowd of 10,000? Without a doubt...That’s okay. Jesus said...Don’t worry about the tares…”23 When George Barna surveyed Willow Creek’s weekend participants he found that while 91% stated that their highest value was having a deep personal relationship with God, of this same group 25% of singles, 38% of single parents and 41% of divorced individuals “admitted to having illicit sexual relationships in the last 6 months.”24

The answer to this movement is to abandon it altogether and return to biblical truth, biblical living, biblical preaching and biblical church principles. The idea that these new ‘purpose driven’ methods will restore the power of God in our midst is a red herring. Warren might just as well say that if only instead of being a preacher of righteousness (2 Pet 2:5) Noah had done some simple market research and built a ‘purpose driven ark’, more than eight people would have come aboard. When holy living, Spirit empowered preaching, loving unity and faithfulness to truth doesn’t seem to bring ‘results’, turning to the new methods advocated by Warren will only spell disaster. There will be results – but all of the wrong kind. A generation ago A.W. Tozer wisely said, “One of the most popular current errors, and the one out of which springs most of the noisy, blustering religious activity in evangelical circles, is the notion that as times change the church must change with them.” Since faithfulness to God’s word, as opposed to what evangelicalism calls success, will be the standard of reward at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor 2:4-5), obedience to the command to preach and teach, without trimming our sail to the wind of the world, is the most pressing need of the hour.

12:22 PM

Wendy Alec: Prophet of God?

2008-06-24T12:24:00.001-04:00

From my friend and brother in the Lord Bud Press-
At this point, it is important to note the following:

1. Wendy Alec is recognized by herself and her peers as a prophet of God and, like Bentley, claims multiple visitations from "Jesus Christ."

2. Wendy Alec delivered a "prophetic word." Todd Bentley read it publicly.

3. Wendy Alec's "prophetic word" did not say that Jesus would visit the revival in spirit, but said twice that Jesus would visit "in person" and that "Jesus" would set His "foot upon the stage in divine, personal, one-to-one visitation."

4. No sooner than Todd Bentley read Wendy Alec's "prophetic word," he did an about-face and inserted his own protective disclaimer, stating in part that, "I'm not suggesting there's going to be a physical, flesh, Jesus Christ on the plat[form]."

5. It is odd that Todd Bentley would contradict Wendy Alec who, like Bentley, has claimed multiple visitations from "Jesus Christ," and is one of Bentley's loyal supporters ( http://www.god.tv/ ).

Certainly, Jesus Christ can do anything He desires; He is God Himself in human form, second Person of the Trinity, Lord and Savior. However, Jesus will not change His mind or contradict His word. And when anyone, whether male or female, claims to be a prophet of God, then claims an "in person" visitation from Jesus Christ, Christians would do well to remember what God's word says about the return of Jesus Christ, and trust in it over-and-above what man or woman teaches:

Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect (Matthew 24:23-24).

So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them (Matthew 24:26).

But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone (Matthew 24:36).

Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming (Matthew 24:42).

For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will (Matthew 24;44).

He said to them, It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority (Acts 1:7).

Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame (Revelation 16:15).

Even the very thought of prophesying a visitation from Jesus or His return is false, due to the fact that Jesus said, no one knows and it is not for you to know and that every eye will see Him.

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen (Revelation 1:7).

Jesus Christ's words are non-negotiable. It wasn't the Jesus of the Bible that spoke to Wendy Alec.

Read the rest of the article here http://www.christianresearchservice.com/WendyAlec1.htm

WHEN YOUR CHURCH GOES ASTRAY

2008-06-23T23:14:00.003-04:00

What Rick Warren and his followers disassociate and distance themselves from are the chaos the methods they teach cause in churches.
These are man-centered purpose driven methods that teach how to appease the flesh.

Keep in mind Rick Warrens root.

He went around and asked the unsaved what they wanted in a church.

And then they served it up.

Again-Warren sought the council of the unsaved (not scripture) what they wanted in a church.

The unsaved are fickle so the ante is always raised up a notch when they get bored.

That is why Rick Warren is contributing to a great deception that will add to the one world religion that is even now forming.

I dont mean to sound sensationalistic but the Bible predicted this time will come.
Rick Warren and purpose driven as well as is very cult like thats why churches are destroyed from the inside.
Willow Creek cant quite make up its mind what it wants to do even after finding out their methods failed.
Willow Creek now is headed toward the new spirituality which is another tangent just like the Emergent Church which is helping form this one world religion.
The same goes for Todd Benteley and his false revival.
Here are some comments from Lighthouse Trails blog that need to be heard.
Peace
Tim
Source: Editors at Lighthouse Trails

LTRP Note: These two comments we received today in our "Guestbook" say so much about what many believers are going through today in their churches.

Letter #1
At first I ignored things I saw on here, things people were linking. I decided to come again to this site after my husband and I just began to feel we weren't being fed in our church. We had experienced many changes from the church "catch phrase" including transform to every single ministry being revamped (except maybe the music ministry which had already been somewhat modern to begin with). Our church is very missional, and that seemed so right to me. I wanted my children to grow up with a heart for people around the world, the idea of going and making disciples seems good and I do not think it is wrong. However, I am now seeing that we are not really as much about pure missions as we are about following this plan and meeting the needs of "emergent youth."

When I really began to search things out, I found that most all of our books or curriculum for adults/youth/children is from Saddleback or WillowCreek. Our pastors are following the likes of Dallas Willard. I began looking at sermon notes and we have the lessons on the global PEACE plan and transformation. We've not been openly promoting contemplative prayer yet, but I believe it's because the pastors realize the church hasn't gotten far enough into it to swallow that one whole yet.

The hardest thing is now sitting in church when there is a nugget of truth, and realizing that it's not enough. I felt this Sunday while we were singing about Satan being vanquished and Jesus being King that I was in a room full of wonderful people who were just as I had been a few months earlier, a room full of people following our pastors right wherever Rick Warren or Dallas Willard prescribe. I cried, I prayed for their eyes to be opened. I prayed for my pastors. We have to decide if we will stay and try to educate, or if our children will be at risk if we do stay. We love those people, you know. We really do. They have been our family for several years, and we're not church hoppers, we're loyal. Well, first off we have to be loyal to the King, and so now we wait on the Lord to see what He would have us to do. My heart is broken.

DMHL
Midwest

Letter #2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. This is in reference to the post below (see Guestbook - entry from 6/22/08) - about worshipping God and not the Bible. :)

I am so interested in this site. I went to a church for 4 years where they were starting to infiltrate with The Purpose Drivin Church methods - we went to Saddleback on 3 different occasions to conferences. I went to Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa...and I was quite used to that 'non-denominational' way . . . and I still am.

As time wore on, my Dad and I were getting quite skeptical of this Purpose Driven idea....we believed that as Christians, our purpose is to spread the Gospel - not growing your church into a mega-chapel where money flows, and what not. So, yes, as Christians, we do have a purpose - and our purpose should be getting out the good news of Jesus Christ - not what Rick Warren or any of his followers are exuding.

As we looked back, upon our practical excommunication from our old church, we see that it was run very much like that of Jim Jones and the Jonestown /Guyana Tragedy....from the late 70s. It was quite bizarre - the similarities.

We are in a Calvary Chapel now....and we've been there for 10 years. We have never been steered into building the church and numbers, and such....our church has grown because people are hungry for the gospel.

God bless you all for proclaiming the truths and for proclaiming Jesus Christ! See you in Heaven! :)

David
Southern California

This article or excerpt was posted on June 23, 2008@ 6:22 pm .

From: http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com
Category: * New Evangelicalism

What Revival is not

2008-06-20T22:27:00.002-04:00

Check this U Tube video out to see what Revival is not.
This 6:36 video compares the spiritual manifestationsof other religions and the new false revivals taking place inside the church.
There are many false voices in Christianity today from Todd Bently, to Rick Warren and his PEACE plan. And others such as Richard Abanes who would lead people astray. The wisest suggestion that I can give you is to get back into the scriptures. Test everything to see if it is true. And make sure you are turning your children, family and friends toward God's Word.
There and there alone will you find the truth.

Tim

Fools for Christ- or just Fools by Mike Oppenheimer

2008-06-20T22:02:00.000-04:00

On June 9th 1994 - John Hinkle on TBN predicted evil would be ripped from the world, everyone was excited. It will be the most cataclysmic event since the resurrection. It would be the day the son of man is revealed. Referencing Isa.25:6-9 for the literal coming of Christ. "I was awaken and the lord spoke to me in the most awesome voice I heard it outside and inside and as I sat up he said on Thursday June the 9th I will rip the evil out of this world."

14 years later, almost to the day, Todd Bentley reads a prophecy for their Sunday night meeting (8th June) revival meeting from Wendy Alec of GOD TV that Jesus is going to personally

Jesus apparently said this to Wendy Alec video

“The Lord just spoke to me and said "This IS what will happen tomorrow night!"
The King and the King's anonting falls tomorrow night. The 8th of June, the anointing of the King of Glory falls. Jesus said, "I am coming in PERSON." The King is coming in person.
I sense so strongly there will be a personal divine visitation of the Lamb of God, the Lord Jesus Christ to the revival tomorrow night.
He will come in the clouds, in His chariot, surrounded by a great angelic host because the great honoring of the Lamb of God, The King of Glory is coming to visit Lakeland, to visit the revival, to visit the outpouring.
The devil trembles with that knowledge. For tomorrow the King of Glory sets foot upon the stage in divine, personal, one-to-one visitation.” -underline mine-

Todd reads this prophecy to the audience, which is not unlike Ruth Heflins prophesy to Benny Hinn before she died. (www.letusreason.org/b.hinn3.htm). “He is going to appear physically in one of our crusades in the next few months” ( March 29th, 2000) Hinn also said: I'm prophesying this Jesus Christ the Son of God is about to appear physically in some Church's and some meetings and to many of his people.” Maybe Bentley's meeting would be the fulfillment of this because he certainly missed showing up at Hinn’s meeting.

Bentley explains about ‘the prophetic’ and justifies the prophecy:

“...though I'm open to a... the Lord can appear... I mean I've seen the Lord. I am not suggesting there is going to be a physical, flesh, Jesus Christ on the platform. I hope you understand, we're talking about in atmosphere, we're talking about in spiritual experience, we're talking about in impartation. Now, now, Roy, if tonight's and last night's worship is any indication that something is changing in the realm of the glory,... something about the King of Glory,oh God, we want to set a place up in the throne of our hearts more than anything else for you to come and visit... Come, on. Who wants to have the King come in His Glory? C'mon...

Bentley may not be suggesting his coming physically but Alec certainly did: ‘I am coming in person to Lakeland. I am coming in the clouds, surrounded by chariots and a host of angels. I will set foot on stage in a divine personal one on one visitation to the revival.’

When Jesus comes in the clouds he is coming back to earth and that is the end of the world system as we know it. But Bentleys take on this is not the biblical one.

Bentley: ‘I am not suggesting there is going to be a physical, flesh, Jesus Christ on the platform... we're talking about in atmosphere, we're talking about in spiritual experience, we're talking about in impartation.’

Bentley changes her meaning of the statement because now this Jesus is obligate to show up to others instead of to him separately as he claims he so often has done.

Wendy Alec qualified how Jesus is to come in person- not in spirit, which would be different than any other night. “I am coming in person." The King is coming in person. “a personal divine visitation of the Lamb of God,. ”He will come in the clouds, in His chariot, surrounded by a great angelic host” “tomorrow the King of Glory sets foot upon the stage in divine, personal, one-to-one visitation.”

Bentley has an interesting reinterpretation, but why can’t Jesus come physically- Patricia King said that he did to Bentley before. In fact, she said that Jesus appeared in his human body just as he walked with on earth before he resurrected (Patricia King video with Bentley http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdwBrB8cCOk&feature=related approx. 1 minute into her spiel)

Patricia King “During that time he had this visitation of the Lord where he actually saw the lord come out of the heaven and appear to him, just like he appeared on the earth, y’know sometimes when you have visions of Jesus like you see in the Bible, you see him in all the brilliance and heavenly glory, and in his glorified state, but when Jesus was in the earth he was a man, in fact, he was so normal people did not recognize him as the Son of God….. and Todd was explaining to me that when Jesus came to him this time he came as he would have look as he would in the earth just like a man…”

Putting aside this not being the reason they did not recognize him as the Son of God, King then proceeds to offer the audience for Jesus to come to them, just as he did to Todd. This is promoting contact with apparitions for this Jesus is NOT the true Jesus of the Bible. They want us to believe that Jesus reversed himself in nature- became unglorified, became mortal again just to visit Todd.
Bentley tells the story that Jesus who came as the Son of man; wasn't the King of glory; wasn't in His resurrection glory” (transcript- http://www.christianresearchservice.com/ToddBentley1.htm)

So then how did Todd recognize him? By this spirit telling him he was Jesus?!?

Here is what the Bible says about all this- 1Timothy 3:16-4:1 Jesus was “Received up in glory.” Jesus is called “the Lord of glory” (James 2:1.) When he appeared to Paul He was in his glory (who states emphatically in 1 Cor.15:8 that he was the last to see him because he was chosen to be appointed.)

Since he is forever the high priest, his glory is forever also for it accompanies his human nature that is unable to die again. the Son who has been perfected forever (Hebrews 7:28) His glory is forever because his dominion is forever. Revelation 1:18 “I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.”

For those who make an excuse that he did not come in his body in Bentley’s meeting but instead spiritually, invisibly in attendance; are they saying – it was not Jesus with them each night? Then why say he will finally show up, with his anointing too? So where was Jesus that night? Was he detained at another meeting? Did his Jesus forget his appointment? Did he go to the wrong address? Where is the Jesus that was to show up. Because it certainly did not happen the way it was prophesied.

The Bible tells us that Jesus is in his body forever and is presently sitting at the right hand of God which is located in heaven. So it becomes ludicrous fro anyone to prophesy such an event. This isn’t Jesus that will appear in glory but a deceiving spirit called Jesus, for they are prophesying what the Bible describes as the second coming of Christ in a different way

This is what it will be like when he comes:

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him.”

Colossians 3:4-5 makes it clear “When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory”

The Second Coming and glory has a different meaning to Latter Rain adherents. Everyone needs to understand what Bentley and others mean is not what the Bible means. Some have not used their Bible for so long that it is officially dormant. The Bible tells us Revelation 1:7 “He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him.”

The real authentic Jesus said in Mt.24:23: "Then if anyone says to YOU, look here is the Christ! or 'There! Do NOT believe them." Why? Because this is not the biblical Second Coming of Christ where every eye will see Jesus return literally in the clouds at the end of the age, theirs is ’spiritual’ Second Coming of Christ.” That is why this is “another Jesus” being presented to the church.

People would rather believe the false advertisements of these mendacious storytellers of the supernatural,

like the dumb down liberals that disbelieve in absolute truth and accept everything that the media tells them as the truth, they believe their stories.

These revivalists demoralize doctrine in the church, having her cast off the anchor to the word to float aimlessly on the moving tide of experience.

Why are we, the church, allowing the church to be led by false teachers? Why?

Is the anointing tangible and transferable by Mike Oppenheimer

2008-06-20T21:59:00.000-04:00

Is the anointing tangible and transferable; can we impart it?

Hebrews 6:1-3 “Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”

The laying on of hands has become an enlarged subject because of its use in the church today. The Bible considers it part of the ABC’s of doctrine along with repentance and baptism.

In the Old Testament It was a symbolic act accompanying a prayer for a blessing, at other times it was accompanied the word of prophecy being spoken or to affirm one into ministry. There is no Biblical basis for associating laying on of hands with a transmission of a mantle or transferring the anointing from one person to another.

It is found in the book of Acts as the practice to commission someone into ministry. The laying on of hands has become a Pentecostal tradition that is removed from its original meaning in Scripture. Touching people on the forehead or chest so they fall is considered a sign of the power of the Holy Spirit. But none of this is found in the Acts of the apostles or taught in the Epistles that instructed the church.

Paul writes--1Timothy 4:14: “Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.” In other words, God spoke what he was doing in Timothy and they approved of him into ministry even though he was young. What was this gift? The previous verse tells us V.13-Till I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.”

Paul laying hands on Timothy was not with the intention to pass on a gift or power or result in the abnormal behaviour as we see today ‘It affirmed the gift they saw working in him which resulted in his appointment to be a pastor. Timothy came under attack as a young pastor and Paul had to reaffirm to him in 2 Timothy 1:6-7 “Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.” In other words he should not cave under pressure from others because of his youth, he was approved by God and through the apostles.

What does this have to do with what we see today? Next to nothing. What we see are people lined up as the anointer comes to lay hands on people in line or sporadically wanders through the audience touching them to pass on what he has.

Yet Paul counseled Timothy in 1 Timothy 5:21-22 :“Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people's sins; keep yourself pure.” Timothy was to lay hands on people as approval for their call into ministry, but he must make sure.

A power called the “anointing” is being transferred by the touch of one person to another, however, the message of the Christian faith was to be spread by teaching from one to another. One is subjective and the other is objective.

Paul instructs timothy ‘And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.’ (2 Timothy 2.2) True spiritual growth comes through the testing of our faith, by our consistent reading, understanding and applying the Word in our lives. NOT by an impartation or a experience at a special meeting. Those who promise a quick transformation from a touch or impartation, are not delivering the truth that is taught in the Bible.

Many today are taught to get an impartation from the anointed preacher. There is no need when Scripture states we all have the same standing before God; all believers have the same Holy Spirit and Christ as our mediator. We can all receive from Jesus, who is the one we should all be seeking. Going to a certain person or meeting to seek an anointing by impartation is unbiblical. No other person is to be our mediator to receive the Holy Spirit. Whenever men become mediators, Christ’s teachings diminish and men’s teachings increase. We are then giving them, not the Lord control over our lives.

Laying hands on the sick to pray is not the same as imparting the spirit and watching them buckle.

A ‘transferable anointing’ is not seen nor practiced anywhere in Scripture. We also find that the Apostles did not rush around laying hands on people to impart an experience of ‘fire’ or power. They did not chant words over and over and expect a immediate response. The impartations done today that come through certain men are not the true anointing, who is the Spirit of God. Only God can give the Spirit; Jesus is the baptizer of the Holy Spirit, not man. Man cannot control God- there is no teaching on how to obtain or release the anointing to another.

In 1 Jn.2 it tells us that we , as believers have the anointing and He is our teacher, we do not need a new anointing to receive another teacher. But that is what one gets if they reject the Holy Spirit as He resides in us to teach us what Jesus said.

Acts 8 is an interesting passage in which Philip preaches in Samaria and many people are saved, but Peter has to come from Jerusalem to lay hands on the people so that they might receive the Holy Spirit. When Simon the Sorcerer sees something spiritual happened and he offered to pay for the ability to pass on the Spirit to others. Acts 8:19-20 "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit."

One wonders what would be the difference of today’s signs and wonders preachers that claim this ability. Peter said ‘Your money perish with you because you thought the gift of God could be purchased with money. … Repent therefore of this your wickedness and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are poisoned with bitterness and bound by iniquity.’ (Acts 8.22-23).

Corinthians reads ‘Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God who has also sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.’ We have been sealed with the Holy Spirit living inside us. 1 John 2.27: ‘These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true and is not a lie and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.’ The anointing who is the Holy Spirit is in us, it is He who guides us into the truth so we can glorify the Lord Jesus (John 1613-15). We certainly are not glorifying the Lord when we go to men to get the Holy Spirit, it is a lack of understanding and a lack of faith.

Todd Bentley: Miraculous Healings?

2008-06-20T21:54:00.001-04:00

Question: If the Florida Outpouring/Lakeland revival is producing miraculous healings, why doesn't Todd Bentley go and lay hands on the sick and dying at the above medical facilities?

Answer: Todd Bentley doesn't have the Biblical gift of healing (1 Corinthians 12:8-9).

Read the rest of the article here http://www.christianresearchservice.com/ToddBentley3.htm

Article on John Bevere

2008-05-31T02:22:00.002-04:00

One of my readers a dear sister in the Lord asked-Tim,

What do you know about John Bevere?
This is a great topic since Warren apoligist Richard Abanes has been all over the internet openly critisisng those of us who have discernement and have discernment ministries.This also has bearing on the recent meeting Rick Warren and his team had with Bob Dewaay and Chris Rosebrough.

Here is a quote from John Bevere- keep in mind all this deception ties together.
Bevere on the subject of discernment ...

John Bevere : "I am so tired of criticalness being called discernment. Do you want to know true discernment? Paul said "That your love may abound in all discernment." When you are willing to die for somebody that is when you are actually discerning them. Jesus could call the Pharisees hypocrites and snakes because he went to the cross and died for them. So the next time you are quote "discerning" about somebody ask yourselves the question could you die for them? If you can`t say yes, you're critical because the love of God is to lay down your life for them, and discernment is rooted only in love. Got it?" (John Bevere, The Christian Channel Europe "The Messenger" 26/3/98)

It is true that Christians need to speak the truth in love among brothers in the Faith (Eph. 4:15). Conversely, and not taught by Bevere, Christians are also to mark, avoid and reject the divisive ones, heretics (Rom. 16:17, Tit. 3:10). Apparently Bevere wants to major on discernment among those who call themselves believers to the exclusion of rejecting heresy from the wolves in sheep's clothing. But what Bevere teaches that is false teaching is that it is wrong for Christians to be "critical". The Greek word from which we get the English word "critical" is kritikos. Strongs says it means discerner, relating to judging, fit for judging, skilled in judging. The Bible clearly teaches that Christians are to learn to discern.
KRITIKOS -- TO DISCERN
For the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge [kritikos] the thoughts and intentions of the heart (Hebrews 4:12). Cells called erythrocytes are stored in the red marrow of big bones, like the femur and the tibia. On the outside there is the bone and on the inside there is the marrow. But in between there is an area where, even with a microscope, it is very difficult to tell where the bone ends and where the marrow begins. The Bible says that the relationship between soul and spirit is like that. Take prophecy: Was that from someone's imagination, or was it God's Spirit speaking through their spirit? It is very difficult to tell the difference. Man is a three-dimensional being. You can separate a body from a soul; but you cannot easily tell where the soul ends and the spirit begins. When people say, "The Lord showed me this" and "God told me that," it is difficult to know if it is someone's imagination or God's Spirit speaking to their spirit. The mind is a good servant, but a dangerous master. Many people are caught up with things not overtly demonic, but they are prophesying from the futility of their own mind. We are called to kritikos -- to discern between the soulish and the spiritual. The Word of God enables us to separate the bone from the marrow, the spiritual from the purely soulish. (Jacob Prasch, Judge Not?, http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/judgenot.html)
Another word for discern in Greek is diakrisis. It means discerning, discern, disputation, a distinguishing, discerning, judging. This word is used in the context of commanding Christians to use critical discernment in the following passages:
1 Cor. 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning (diakrisis) of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
Heb 5:14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern (diakrisis) both good and evil.
1 Cor. 12:10 is the same type of discernment that John speaks of in 1 John 4:1.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test (dokimazo) the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Dokimazo means prove, try, approve, discern, allow, like, test, examine, scrutinise (to see whether a thing is genuine or not), as metals, to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy. Dokimazo is used in these verses commanding Christians to use critical discernment.
Lu 12:56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern (dokimazo) the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern (dokimazo) this time?
Lu 14:19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove (dokimazo) them: I pray thee have me excused.
Ro 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain (dokimazo) God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove (dokimazo) what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine (dokimazo) himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove (dokimazo) your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Ga 6:4 But let every man prove (dokimazo) his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
Eph 5:10 Proving (dokimazo) what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Php 1:10 That ye may approve (dokimazo) things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try (dokimazo) the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Th 5:21 Prove (dokimazo) all things; hold fast that which is good.
I could go on and on with word studies having to do with discernment, testing,
Read the rest of the article here from my friend and brother in the Lord Sandy Simpson.

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/beverequotes.html
Peace and thanks Marie-Tim

Todd Bentley and Rick Warren are a reflection of Worldwide deception and the lack of biblical discernment from many American Christians

2008-05-29T21:53:00.008-04:00

Acts 17:11 "11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

2 Timothy 4:2-5
"2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry."

It needs to be stated that here in America we have created a climate
where false teachers like Rick Warren and Todd Bentley can thrive.
We can't blame everything on the false teachers if guys like Rick Warren and Todd Bentley couldn't pull big crowds they would have been forgotten long ago.
They have sought after power and fame but we give that to them.
Why has America gone in this direction?
Because they have forgotten to hold things up to the scripture's and test all things.
Pastor no longer are on their knees long hours seeking the Holy Spirits council in what to preach to their individual congregations.
Instead they seek the quick fix.
The sermon off the Internet crafted into their own words.
A search to experience something they think is God.
It seems that if a church is not rocking out, clucking like chickens, laughing like loonies or doing something crazy their church is considered a dead church.
Sad but the meetings the apostles and early Christians had at the start of Christianity would have been considered a dead church by today's entertainment standards.
But their church was full of life because it was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Rick Warrens church and Todd Bentley's gatherings are filled with quick fixes, man made programs made to stimulate the flesh, as well as common old tent revival con artist routines.
How does motivational speakers such as Joel Osteen pack churches out check these stats-"Lakewood Church is located in one of the poorest areas of northeast Houston. Dr. John Osteen, father of current pastor Joel, started the church in a feed store. A model of that former meeting place was displayed in the main entrance of the 7,000-seat worship center eventually built by the congregation.

Joel became pastor of the church when his father died in 1999. In several God-size steps, Joel led the church to begin a second, then third and fourth worship service. Attendance doubled from 11,000 in 1999 to 22,000 one year later. In early 2004, Lakewood was listed as both the largest and the fastest growing church in the nation when attendance reached 25,000. By early 2005, the church became the first in the U.S. to exceed 32,000 average weekend attendance"
source-http://www.apologeticsindex.org/230-lakewood-church

And check the fruit of these churches. Saddleback has created a monster in the form of author Richard Abanes who tears it up all over the Internet defending Rick Warrens faith daily. The world wide damage and deception that Rick Warren has done by promoting his new religion Purpose Driven is yet not even measurable.
Todd Bentley has also did tremendous damage to Christianity with the deception and false spirits he imparts to his crowds who take them back these demons back to their home churches worldwide.
Consider the case of lemmings-
Driven by strong biological urges, they will migrate in large groups when population density becomes too great. Lemmings can and do swim and may choose to cross a body of water in search of a new habitat[5]. On occasion, and particularly in the case of the Norway lemmings in Scandinavia, large migrating groups will reach a cliff overlooking the ocean. They will stop until the urge to press on causes them to jump off the cliff and start swimming, sometimes to exhaustion and death. Lemmings are also often pushed into the sea as more and more lemmings arrive at the shore.
And now once again consider this verse of scripture.
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."
When we are in our flesh and we want what we want instead of what God wants we are asking to be handed over to the deceptions of Rick Warren and Todd Bentley.
Consider Rick Warrens roots-
He started his books and church as well as his new religion based on his targeting the council of unsaved people on their way to hell.
Does scripture teach this?
Does scripture teach that this is the way to build a church?
No it does not.
Rick Warren has even stated "The biggest mistake that churches make is we think that sermons will produce spiritual maturity. They will not.
Now of course Rick is telling the truth for once if he is speaking about his own sermons spoken at Saddleback as well as the ones produced by Rick followers around the world. That indeed is a fact.
But the Bible teaches that solid biblical based teaching will lead a believer to spiritual maturity.
Eph 4:11-14 "11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,"
The reason many Americans and people world wide are being tossed to and fro by guys like Warren and Bentley is that preachers are not preaching the whole council of God.
And people are not reading their Bible for themselves and allowing the Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth.
Instead they are like lemmings heading for the cliff that Rick Warren and Todd Bentley are leading them to.
For the latest on Rick Warren please go to my other blog here-
http://nogoofyzone.wordpress.com

For the latest on Todd Bentley (if you even have the stomach) check these links
Bud Press articles

http://www.christianresearchservice.com/ToddBentleyResearchPage.htm

Mike Oppenheimer articles

http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain37.htm

Meanwhile you will have to decide whether you will get back into Gods word which exposes frauds and false teachers like Rick Warren and Todd Bentley

Or be like a lemming and go for a swim.

Lemmings may look cute and all but-

The real question here is-

How long can you tread water?
Sincerely in Christ
Tim Wirth

Rick Warrens meeting with Chris Rosebrough and Bob Dewaay

2008-05-27T18:31:00.005-04:00

A concerned reader commented-

Tim,

What do you know regarding Warren's latest conference and the "generous" invitation he extended to his detractors in the discernment community to be his guests at the latest 3-day conference on the grounds of Saddleback? (all-expenses paid)

I ssume you were included in the list of those invited, as you have boldly taken on the subject of Warren yourself -- as well as his staunch defender Richard Abanes.

Warren seems determined to sway his detractors and draw them into his his circle. This is without a doubt a very smooth move on his part, extending the hand of friendship to those who have tirelessly exposed the darker purposes of the Purpose Driven movement. Clever and diabolical are two terms that come to mind as describing Warren's ploys. And foolish is the word that would best describe those who accepted his invitation... To think they'd "find something" in their time there to report back to their constituents was a little naive on their parts, I believe. Knowing Rick and his ability to put his best foot forward, I'd have thought better of our watchmen than to oblige themselves to Warren by accepting such an invitation. To think he'd invite their participation in this event if he thought they'd be able to find an ounce of anything unorthodox, offensive or false to report back to us about.

I'm deeply concerned about those who accepted Warren's invitation to attend this 3-day conference. Chris Rosebrough, for example. He began live-blogging from the event but then mysteriously disappeared from the scene. If you'll go on Chris's website, his latest post is a Thank-you to Rick Warren and Saddleback for their generous hospitality and Rick's genuine sincerity. Chris mentioned Bob DeWaayas being present there withhim, and the two of them together being treated to a gracious "one on one" meeting with Warren, from which it was determined that he was SOOOO sincere, SOOOOwilling to consider their grievances with him (so "conciliatory"...)

What's going on here??? What were these guys thinking in accepting Warren's deceptive overture to them? Did they think they would be impervious to his wiles, that they would be able to resist his charm, his disarming manner, his and "sincerity"?

I am most concerned. I am wondering how many of our illustrious watchmen took the bait to attend this conference that was deliberately designed, one might reason, to win their trust of Warren and thus discount all the negative reporting of Warren's unbiblical goals, agenda, aspirations. We already know that that Warren weilds a charm that is disarming, and are we not fools to engage it, and to ingratiate ourselves to him for his "sincere generosity" and "hospitality"?

What can you tell us about the discernment community's response to Warren's unexpected 11th hour invitation to be his guests for a three-day immersion in carefully planned presentations and warm-fuzzy experiences?

I'm searching for some word from within the discernment community, some post-conference respoonse, and finding nothing (so far). Have we not just been played? I suspect that Warren may have succeeded in convincing his opponents that he is a harmless and lovable character after all, and the consummate gentleman, his knowledge of politics having served him well.

Ingrid has had precious little to say recently besides remarking that Chris Rosebrough was asked by Warren to shut down his live blogging of the conference (with which he complied). Where is any comment post-conference from within the discernment fold? All I'm finding is silence, and it's a little disconcerting.

What do you know about any of this, Tim? Can you tell us someething? Perhaps I'm asking prematurely. I suppose there may be some response show up later today...

Here is my responce-

The post this person was referring to was here-

http://www.extremetheology.com/2008/05/thank-you-to-ri.html

I expressed my concerns to Chris about this publically on his website. I also spoke to Chris a couple of times on the phone to get some more information on what is going on. After my conversation with Chris I must say I at this point I am not concerned but I will be interested on how Chris responds to all this as well as how Bob Dewaay responds.

I however would not have went to the meeting for the following reasons.

1. Rick Warren is famed for how charming he can be. I believe Rick has a deceptive spirit around him though. For more on this turn your Bibles to Danial 8:23-24.

2. Rick Warren and what he does is very much out in the public. He is a member of the Council of Foreign Relation and spoke at the Davos conference with Emergent Church leader Brian McLaren

read this article by Joe Farah and the Davos article by Herescope.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53030

http://herescope.blogspot.com/2008/01/rick-warren-brian-mclaren-at-davos.html

I really dont have anything to say to Rick Warren but repent and stop deceiving the thousands of churches in the Body of Christ with all his false teachings and associations.

I do not believe anything outside of a direct act from God would convince Rick Warren to repent and cease his false teaching and leading the Body of Christ astray.

But God is still a God of Miracles. He is also a God that will turn you over to a reprobate mind if you dont repent.

Out of all the people invited( which the list included Deb and Dave Dombrowski, Ingrid, James Sundquist among some others) only Chris and Bob decided to go on Rick Warrens dime.

Im sure Saddleback and Warren checked damage control and sought the blogs and website's with the most hits so he could get the most bang for his buck.

Warren may be a lot of things but he is a brilliant businessman and knows how to do damage control.

Sad but I think no matter how Chris or Bob respond this is a win-win for Rick Warren because he paid their way.

At least thats my opinion.

Ingrids refusal publicly on her website stated it best I thought.

http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?p=741

I was personally not invited to this meeting and would not go anywhere with Rick Warren picking up my tab. I would not spend a penny of that guys money period.

The bad thing about all this was that Abanes has run rampant on Chris blog with his usual half truth's and lying tongue.

Richard even stated that this meeting was cancelled on another website because no one took Warrens offer which of course was not a true statement.

I asked Chris if he knew of any meeting that was supposed to have included Richard Abanes, he stated he hadnt heard of any other meeting that would have included Richard.

Read my comments about that here

http://nogoofyzone.wordpress.com/2008/05/17/richard-abanes-spokesperson-for-saddleback-and-rick-warren/

Maybe Richard is not as close a confidant as I have thought he was with Rick Warren.

But who really know's Richard spins sometimes so quickly you get dizzy following what he originally says.

Richard does like to inflate the truth.

Anyway I spoke to Chris today and he has stated he is working on a article and it would be up on his blog soon.

So of course its best to let Chris speak for himself , which Im sure he will do.

I have heard nothing about a response from Bob Dewaay and I dont know him. But I would hope that he will respond as he is lead by the Lord.

Again Im not exactly sure of what would motivate anyone to sit at a table outside of a public arena with Rick Warren.

Most of all not on Ricks dime.

We''l see how this all plays out. Though I commend Chris and Bob for taking the time not just to react. But to sit and think prayerfully about how they will respond.

If I had a tape of this meeting it would be out on U Tube whenever I got it and let the public take away what they will from it.

But Chris and Bob are accountable to God to respond as they see fit.

We will see what happens.

Tim Wirth

Todd Bentley’s Diabolical Signs

2008-05-19T22:03:00.002-04:00

Jackie Alnor on Todd Bentley article. Very good read. Tim

If you’ve been watching the news on "Christian Television" in the past couple of weeks, you could not have missed the glowing reports of a "revival" breaking out in Lakeland, Florida. It is headed up by a certified false prophet/teacher by the name of Todd Bentley, one of the guys from the infamous Elijah List, an umbrella group that markets all the bogus "prophetic" junk their many seers sell. Many of these forerunners for the antichrist are heralding this outbreak as the much-touted outpouring of the latter rain. {If you think I'm speaking harshly, keep reading to understand why I can't mince words.}

click on the title to read the rest of the article

One of our readers comments

2008-05-07T17:51:00.002-04:00

This comment that I just received concerning Rob Bell is well worth repeating.
I have to echo this dear sister in the Lords concern.
And I repeat where is the pastors of our churches discernment?
Its flown out the window.
Fortunately the church I serve in now has a discerning pastor who is warning about the threat to our youth in the form of the Emergent church.
Unfortunately the church I just left Upper Valley Community church here in Piqua is asleep at the wheel and has traded a positive message in for the sake of numbers.
Sorry folks these times are dangerous and people need to be warned.
Seeker Sensitive has built our churches 500-5000 wide, but the Christians in these churches are 1 inch deep.
I know thats harsh but its also a true statement and I stand by it.
Here is one of our readers comments-

Tim,
I have seen and heard Rob Bell through many videos and what I refer to as "pro Bell" writings as well as those who are seeing the red flags (like yourself). I have had red flags waving about Bell for a long time now. In fact, we are no longer at the church where we fellowshipped for seven years, in part, due to Rob Bell and Nooma. (Nooma is the name of his video series.)

After much prayer and investigation, we approached our pastor and youth pastor about the concerns we had with some of Bell's theology and the things he was instucting and encouraging. For example, "breathing out sin" and "Christian yoga", just to name two. Believe me, it is way bigger than that. We were told that there was nothing wrong with Rob Bell or his ministry and that we were being fundamental and rigid. At the same time, our pastor was encouraging our church body to link up with a church in our community that performs same-sex marriages and stands with Planned Parenthood, because they have a food distrubution during the holidays. Our youth wanted to put together a basket (within the youth group) for a family in our prayer-focus, but the pastor took it out of their hands and insisted that we would join this church and work with them in "unity" to "feed the hungry". We were saddened, surprised and shocked...all at the same time. It's a really long story. Our concerns were flushed over and over while we tried to communicate with both pastors. The main focus became uniting with this other church on a thread of commonality...feeding the hungry, or "getting food to hungry people".

So, what does all this have to do with Rob Bell? I believe our story is an example of how "the unity" of faith is exploited and misrepresented. Rob Bell is just a part of the picture. There is a defining line being drawn down the middle of the church. Folks are being asked to leave their churches if they don't get on the band wagon with the Emergent Movement. Some get pressured other ways. If they remian silent about their concerns, they can stay. If they change their minds, they can stay. Sadly, the watchmen are either sleeping, decieved or afraid of getting booted out.

Now, back to Rob Bell. These are simple questions; Why would a Christian minister encourage kids to perform yoga when God's Word denounces these types of avenues to try to get closer to Him? (Listen to his "Breathe" sermon.) If this doesn't give you a caution, I don't know what would. Would it not be better to lead a person down the road of repentance than to lead them to believe that they can breathe out their sin and breathe in forgiveness? This may sound trivial and unimportant to many, but it is vital to the soul. And speaking of soul; I think of what is waiting for the soul who "causes one of these to stumble" and pray that children will be protected from Bells twisted theology and his efforts to turn ancient practices into "get closer to God disciplines". These things are just a drop in the bucket. And it isn't just Bell. Doug Pagitt, Brian McClaren and even Rick Warren are moving in the "unity at any cost" direction. The list is quite long, but these are just a few high profile names.

Our family is very well established in our community (spiritually, personally and in business) and it was no secret that we served our Father inside our church and outside. My husband sat on the church council, drove one of the trailers and was a key person in the set-up and tear-down (portable church meeting in public school). He was also the greeter, an usher, filling in where needed. I was part of the prayer ministry team, connected with lots of people and also filled in at times. We are also watchmen. The Lord has shown us for a few years, what was coming. I still remember the vision He gave me of dogs coming right into the church...appearing friendly...whipping the children with their tails...people having conversations and eating and drinking and not paying attention...all the while the children are being whipped and also licked in their faces, to the point of suffocation. Some were still in their carseats sitting on the floor. The parents maintained that the dogs were friendly and I should stop making a big deal of it. The licking, to them, was friendly and my concerns were unwarranted. I saw the dogs' teeth and tongues and their whipping tails. It was horrifying. And right in the church!

That may have been too much information for you and your readers, but I believe it was one of many warnings that the Lord gave me. By the way, I confronted one of the dogs and it tried to intimidate me with it's teeth and loud bark. I punched it square in the mouth and my hand went in and was protected from any injury. I knew this to be the Lord's protection and that I had done the right thing. I see now, that I could have spent more time praying for the protection of our little church. I did share the vision with the pastor and a few others, but it was shined-on (disregarded) and not talked about. No skin off my nose, but has the church thumbed it's nose at God's warnings?

God is speaking to the watchmen in His church. Is the church throwing the watchmen as well as the children to the dogs?

I don't know if I will write or comment here again, but I do know that I will continue to pray for the watchmen and for the lost. Check everything out folks...and listen to the Holy Spirit..listen, listen, listen and then obey. Don't fall into deception in these days. Wide is the road to destruction so if you are in the mainstream you should be even more diligent to check yourself, your theology; not just for your sake, but for those who may follow you to where you are going.

A Sister in Christ