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Former drummer for Gary Lewis and The Playboys and The Coasters. Tim has also played with Paul Baloche, Lincoln Brewster, Darlene Zscech and Hillsongs, Jeff Fenholt, SteveCamp among others. Tim founded The Simply Agape Project in 2001 to get free Christian music to the troops. Recordings have been made with Tim, and friends Alex Acuna, Abe Laboriel SR, Justo Almario,Steve Camp , Jared Ming and some wonderful Independant Christian artists.The Somebody Brave CD also features words of encouragment to the soldiers from Pastors, Moms, Dads, and Lt Col Brian Birdwell a Pentegon 9/11 survivor Tim is married to Donna Wirth and has four children Alan 25,Steven 23, Brittany 22, Bethany 21. Tim has played in numerous churchs as well as shows on TBN. Tim has also performed on JCTV on the show Generation Worship featuring worship leader Jared Ming. Tim has a book published worldwide titled "Pass The Plate And Let Us Prey" (My Search For Black and White Christianity in a Gray Nation)

Monday, April 30, 2007

The Dark Ages Part 5- When the Body of Christ becomes a business Part 2- Rick Warren



You have got to give credit where credit is due.


Schuller couldn't do it.


Hybels couldn't do it on the scale Warren does.

Rick Warren is a networking and business genius.

He has almost single handily turned a large number of pastor into CEO's.

Which is a oxymoron because you cant do what Rick does and follow Jesus at the same time.

Their teaching are in conflict even though Rick likes to name drop our Lord quite often.

Rick doesn't follow Jesus or scripture but yet his own religion.


1John 2:15-16

"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

For all that is in the world––the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life––is not of the Father but is of the world"


Now I'm pretty sure Rick would disagree with me and state that he doesn't love the world.

Ricks methods and teaching show otherwise.

Ive learned not to trust anything Rick Warren states because-

1. Its not based on the Bible but Ricks own distorted, warped rendering of scripture.

2. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.


Ever read a article you wish you had wrote?

I read a couple today sent to me from a friend in the Lord.

I will share it with you now in two parts.

Very long but a good read-Tim


from the Independent Conservative-


by IndependentConservative @ 1:11 pm. Filed under Nuts on Parade
I’m just going to cut to the quick and start detailing why Rick Warren is more harmful to the faith than some might suspect.
First off, he’s OK with teaming with people involved in cults and watering down his own ministry of the Gospel, if it means he can give somebody a hot meal. He’s emphasizing physical charity over spiritual ministry.
From NBC Meet the Press Transcript 12/24/2006
DR. WARREN: Well, it’s a good concern. That’s true, most of the world is non-Christian, two thirds is not, but the—most of the world has faith of some kind. For instance, there are 600,000 Buddhists in the world, there are 800,000 Hindus, there are 1.3 billion Muslims and 2.3 billion Christians. The actual number of true secularists is actually quite small outside of Manhattan or Europe. So most people have a faith. Now, if you say you have to put your faith on the shelf to do humanitarian aid, you’ve ruled out most of the world. And, and so what I’m saying is, I honestly don’t care what your motivation is to do good, as long as you do good. You might have a political motivation. Somebody comes and says to you, “It makes good sense—it’s good foreign policy for us to help people get well, like with AIDS.” I’ve noticed they tend to like your country when you help them out. It’s just flat out good foreign policy to do health care, OK? That’s not my motivation, but it’s fine. Then there might be a political—a profit motivation, make money and help people. I wish more businesses did it.
By Rick’s own definition, Arab Muslims working in Africa is good, so long as they provide medical care.Here’s more from him. (Same transcript)
…I feel deeply about pro-life, very deeply about it. I’m a staunch pro-lifer. But I will work with anyone on anything if we can work together.…
Warren does not realize that he is the one putting his faith on the shelf. But hey, who needs Jesus if they’ve got medical care? I mean all he did was heal people right? (sarcasm)
He goes on to say:
I don’t agree with everything my gay friends agree with, and they don’t agree with everything I, I believe in, but if they want to work on AIDS, we’ll work with them. We’ll work with anybody. That’s this civility of, to quote that great theologian Rodney King, “Can’t we just get along?” And have—look at what’s the common good.
So work with the homosexuals on AIDS, just don’t go telling them they need to repent or anything. After all, Jesus just ran around healing people, right? (sarcasm)
Folks, we should not compromise the ministry of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, just so we can say we gave some AIDS medicine to someone and the pro-gay lobby gave us money to help do it. While on earth in flesh, Jesus always ensured that he and his disciples sent the message of repentance along with their humanitarian efforts. That means the pro-gay crowd and the Muslims won’t want to work with someone engaged in true Christian ministry. Likewise the Christian would not desire to work with those not helping to spread the message of Jesus Christ! Jesus told people “go and sin no more”, not go ahead and sin and we’ll hand out some condoms in the morning, or you hand out the condoms and I’ll hand out an AIDS pamphlet, whatever works for you so long as we can do it together.

ABCNews program Nightlne did a report about Warren this week. And one who saw what Warren’s efforts can turn a church group into offered his opinion.
Rick Warren and Purpose-Driven Strife
…One of the first people to leave Bartlett’s church was a retired pastor, Joe Owings.…“Well, the preaching was very much topical preaching,” Owings said about the church he parted from in North Carolina. “It tended to deal with how to have a better marriage, or how to do this or how to do this. It was more self-help type ministry.”
When asked if he believed that some churches had become pop psychology centers focusing too much on self-esteem and well-being, Owings said, “Yes. It’s merchandising. … It tends to use psychological techniques. And it quotes more Freud, maybe, than it does the Bible.”…
When I hear Warren on the radio I feel exactly the same as Owings. And let me tell you folks, old ministers know the game backwards and forwards. So heed when an elder of the church says there is a problem. (See: 1 Peter 5) Churches like Warren’s always succeed in having “elders” who are about 45 years old and usually have been saved for about 10 years or less, while all the older more seasoned saints like Owings leave.
Now granted when Warren is confronted with these concerns he has a ready defense, but his church and others continue to do it.
See the full video ABCNews report here. Hat tip goes to Bryan at Hot Air.
You know I’ve already had to cover the truth regarding tithes. Does Rick Warren’s new style church teach the new covenant form of giving money? You’ve got to be kidding!
Living with purpose - Chicago Tribune article hosted on the Saddleback Church (Warren’s church) web site
…For his part, Warren says he hears all the time that Saddleback is, as he puts it, “a shallow, superficial church that caters to the whims of consumeristic Christianity.” But he points out that Saddleback’s membership requirements include a pledge to tithe (give 10 percent of your income to the church) and to go on humanitarian mission trips.…
And given he’s working with non-Christians for the sake of humanitarian work, those missions will be limited regarding how much actual ministry of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that they will do. Wouldn’t want to offend anybody you know.
Now when it comes to Warren’s church endorsing false teaching regarding tithes, just look at how they bind people who question them. And this is another one right off Warren’s church web site.
Tithe on gross or net?
Question: I know that tithing is supposed to be giving 10 percent to the Lord. Is that 10 percent of the gross or of the net after taxes? I don’t know that I could afford to give 10 percent of what I earn before taxes!…
The person is obviously hurting to make ends meet and hoping to be faithful while still being able to be an honest broker with people they are in debt to. I’ve already explained how Christians are not bound under the old Jewish law of tithing. A law that even today’s Orthodox Jews don’t adhere to, because the Levitical priests are dead. For Christians the old law is dead and we live in the newness of Grace, that came with the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ. But Warren’s church like others tell people who struggle the following lies.
From the answer given by Tom Holladay at Saddleback.
…The practice that Christians have always carried out is the giving of 10 percent back to the Lord of ALL that the Lord has given to you - your gross.…
The correct answer would have been that Christians are not bound under the law and should give as the Lord leads. But look what is said in the Lord’s name.
…The Lord could have asked us to give 50 percent to him, but he chose 10 percent.…
Jesus never paid tithes, the apostles never paid tithes, Jesus never collected tithes, the apostles never collected tithes, but just like many churches regarding this false teaching, Saddleback goes with the old school lie when it comes to money .
Then comes the talk about others who gave 10% seeing earthly life changing blessings.
…Yet when they’ve started to give they have seen God bless them in a way that was life-changing.…
Notice they never tell you about all the people who give and now their creditors are not seeing them as such good Christians. This is why people should give as led by the Lord. So that they can be honest brokers with creditors and give as would be best for their circumstances. Notice the responses to tithes never mention Jesus telling the rich man to give all his money to THE POOR. I mean if you gave it all to THE POOR than Saddleback would not get A DIME.
And then comes the pitch to start paying that 10% of gross NOW.
…I’d encourage you to start now and make the sacrifice to tithe beginning this next month. Read Malachi chapter 3 (the last book in the Old Testament). You’ll find a verse where God encourages us to test him in this by tithing.…
Never mind those creditors and your family needs, give to Saddleback (oh they say God) now.
1 Timothy 5:8 (New King James Version)
8) But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
Matthew 25:31-46 mentions to us that we see Jesus when we see the needy, but at Saddleback they are instructed to give that 10% to “Saddleback”. No mention is made that Malachi was a prophet to the Jews of Israel regarding the old covenant, that passed away with the new covenant explained in Hebrews 7 & 8. The claim is made that God encourages “us” to test “Him” by tithing, when God was encouraging Jews before Christ came to earth in flesh to test him in a form of tithing that is NOTHING like what is taught at Saddleback. Read that whole book of Malachi and you find they actually were “paying” tithes and offerings, but not as God commanded!
And how come today’s pastors never preach about the apostle Paul working as a tent maker to take care of himself? (See: Acts 18) Going places and WORKING A REGULAR JOB, while also ministering and giving money to the needy, to the point he was broke himself. Today the pastors, associates pastors and even musicians are taking a salary at many churches. (In some cases it is a Love Offering. Some pastors say that they give it away, but why take it in the first place if you don’t intend to keep it? Tell the people to give it away like Jesus did.) When Jesus collected money it was actually used for ministry, except what Judas was stealing, which Jesus knew about but allowed given scriptures had to be fulfilled. Maybe Saddleback is not so “new” in some ways after all.
Here’s what Melvin Jones at Pulpit Pimps has to say about Warren and his book “The Purpose Driven Life”.
Purpose Driven Tripe or The Bible Driven Life
…Rick Warren, the author of the now ubiquitous “The Purpose Driven Life (TPDL)” is probably doing more to destroy Christianity than Calypso Louie (AKA The Honorable Louis Farrakhan) has ever done.…
Read it all. You know Melvin always fully details his statements with an avalanche of proof.
Now some of you might say I’m somehow wrong to be critical of someone who claims the faith. I say to you, that you should consider reading The Word of God for yourself and being critical of those who come to you with something they claim is “new”.
2 Timothy 3:12-17 (New King James Version)
12) Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
13) But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
14) But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15) and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17) that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Who would rather I see the wolf, who does all he can in the name of “growth” and not warn you? Even if you rebuke me, I’m still going to have enough LOVE for you to inform you that you’re being influenced by a WOLF. And having done that, at judgment you will have to assume responsibility for your choice and I won’t face judgment for not warning you of the danger I saw.


Part 2-


by IndependentConservative @ 6:22 pm. Filed under Nuts on Parade, Business
Jesus and the money changers had a fairly clear relationship. They wanted to market in the temple and Jesus was not having it.
Matthew 21:12-14 (New King James Version)
12) Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves.
13) And He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’”
14) Then the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them.
Jesus did not ask them to partner with him and fund the ministry. He knew their motives and kicked them out!
Before I continue, there are a few points that must be understood and if you disagree with them, you probably won’t be able to make sense of the rest of this post:
1) Today the “temple” is the church, as in the body of Christ, as in human beings who accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and live to please him.
2) Businesses operate to serve the interests of owners/investors, who use the business as a means to make money.
3) In relation with point #2 above, businesses operate to make money and all functions of a business are done with that goal in mind.
Jesus and the apostles accepted freely given funds from people who followed the Lord and wanted to help fund the ministry of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There is no record of heathens, money changers and others who were not actual followers of Christ helping to fund ministry. People who provided money were first converts and then provided money. So if a CEO accepts Jesus into their heart and then desires to give money, that is correct and scripturally supported. If the CEO wants to give before accepting Jesus, the focus should be on helping the CEO get their heart right with the Lord before taking their money. A company, being an entity developed for the sake of making money is only going to give money when there is a tangible return. Businesses will never come close to the Matthew 6 style of giving. Because when they give they typically provide their own press release or do it in a manner that requires the receiver to publicize the company’s brand. In short, they give as a form of advertising that is called charity, which provides a nice tax break. I’m not saying businesses should not give to anyone, but the church that receives from a business (not an individual) is going to be expected to provide something in return. Which will tarnish the entire process. So while a secular charity might gladly accept corporate funding, the church should exercise extreme caution with corporations and avoid corporate based funding. Government faith based funding is a bad idea, because it intertwines government rules and restrictions with ministry. It is worse with corporate funding. Because the company will not desire to see the money used for evangelism and the company will want their brand advertised as well. So, the church should keep the money changers out. Accept in those who wish to learn about Jesus and post conversion any individuals that wish to donate, that’s the proper order of things.
Having said all that, I was looking at the May 7, 2007 issue of Forbes magazine and noticed an article by none other than Saddleback Church pastor Rick Warren. This issue of Forbes was all about networking. So just what would a pastor have to tell business people in an issue of a business magazine devoted to networking? Accept Jesus, he’s the best network with eternal gains? NOPE! Jesus wants you to join his network which is better than man’s? NOPE!. Warren was not writing this article as a businessman, but in his role as pastor of a church. If Warren worked in corporate marketing outside of the church (even if he also was a pastor) and wrote an article in Forbes that was not on behalf of the church (as in Christians) and was about business networks, I would not be making this post. But Warren wrote an article in a business magazine on behalf of the church and did exactly the opposite of the Lord’s example. He asked businesses to give in order for the church to do what he feels are good works. Keep in mind, I noted in a previous post how Rick Warren is willing to work with people who have absolutely no desire to spread the message of Jesus Christ.
Warren’s piece is titled The Power of Parishioners and you will need to get a free Forbes.com account to read it. I’m not going to quote any of it here, because I want you to read it all yourself. I want you to make the assessment of it on your own and I don’t want to pull a clip of this one that someone might feel was misconstrued. I’m giving my thoughts on it here, but you read the whole thing and consider the example of Jesus and the apostles.
Warren speaks of 5 global problems he wants to address:
spiritual emptiness
corruption
poverty
disease
illiteracy
He proposes a 3 way partnership to address these issues:
Government
Business
The Church
While spiritual emptiness is the first mentioned in his list of problems, in his solicitation to the business community for help, he only cites examples that address poverty and disease. These are the only 2 areas he goes in depth on. He does not say any more about the spiritual side of things and never says “Jesus” a single time. Keep in mind, he’s representing the church in this article. Soliciting for the church. But he totally neglects to mention Jesus and never says he wants to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
You might be asking, so what’s wrong with him seeking to have churches work with big business to fight poverty and disease? As I’ve already mentioned, these kinds of partnerships come at a price. The price would be that the church would face restrictions on how any corporate donations are spent, like with money from the government. Companies know if they were to openly fund a church with the expressed intention of spreading the message of Jesus Christ and him alone, that all their non-Christian contacts would be ticked and for them that would be bad for business. Also, the company would want to use the “partnership” as a marketing tool. Money changers would be fully in the temple doing their marketing. They would market not only to the church members, but also make press releases to laud how they gave to the church. On top of that, they would probably seek to have any church effort mention their name/brand and leverage the church for a form of advertising.
The church is to do good works, but we must maintain the proper context of our efforts. If we take from government as the church, we are not bound by what the Lord commands, but what government commands be done with the money. If we take from corporations, we are bound by corporate requests, that could be more demanding than those from government. Also, once that corporation is caught in scandal, they’d want face time with the church, to put a nice spin out to the media.
And of course there are the issues with what the corporation might be involved in as a company that is outside of the will of the Lord.
We are to spread the message of Jesus and in that do the good works. Not prostitute the church to make money to do good works that are restricted from fully offering the uncompromised Gospel of Jesus Christ. Which would include things like telling a homosexual convert that they need to turn from that lifestyle. Something companies and even some governments would not like to see done.
I feel Warren’s efforts set a dangerous precedent and will turn the church into an extension of the money changer.
From my friend and brother in the Lord Sandy Simpson. (After reading this do a search on C. Peter Wagner)
Ricks ROOTS
Rick Warren wrote his doctoral dissertation at Fuller Seminary on his church growth ideas. His mentor was C. Peter Wagner! Here is a copy of the FirstSearch Dissertations Abstracts listing:
Title:
NEW CHURCHES FOR A NEW GENERATION: CHURCH PLANTING TO REACH BABY BOOMERS. A CASE STUDY: THE SADDLEBACK VALLEY COMMUNITY CHURCH (CALIFORNIA)
Author(s):
WARREN, RICHARD DUANE
Degree:
D.MIN.
Year:
1993
Pages:
00413
Institution:
FULLER THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY, DOCTOR OF MINISTRY PROGRAM; 0790
Advisor:
Mentor: C. PETER WAGNER
Source:
DAI, 54, no. 03A, (1993): 0967
Abstract:
One out of every three Americans alive today was born during the eighteen year period between 1947 and 1964. These 74,000,000 adults are the Baby Boom Generation. Today the youngest of the Baby Boomers is 24 and the oldest is 41 years old. In addition to being the largest generation of Americans, Baby Boomers are unique in their attitudes, values, and lifestyles. There are significant cultural differences between the Baby Boomer and the generations that both precede and follow them.
A People magazine survey found that only 11% of Baby Boomers regularly attend church. The basic argument of this dissertation is that most Baby Boomers will never be reached by traditional churches. We must establish new churches to reach this new generation of Americans. It will require new churches that understand the Baby Boom mindset and are intentionally designed to meet their needs, tastes, and interests.
During the past thirteen years, I have been researching, testing, and implementing principles and programs to reach Baby Boomers. I began the Saddleback Valley Community Church in January, 1980 in my home with my wife and the first family I met when I moved to the area. My target was to reach Baby Boomers. Today, the church averages about 6,000 in attendance. Over 50% of the members are Baby Boomers and nearly 70% were saved and baptized at the church.
Our church has sponsored 20 daughter churches since it began. In each of these new churches we have used the same strategy with good results. I believe the strategy we're developing at Saddleback is reproducible in other new church starts.

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