The No Goofy Zone Discernment Ministry

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Former drummer for Gary Lewis and The Playboys and The Coasters. Tim has also played with Paul Baloche, Lincoln Brewster, Darlene Zscech and Hillsongs, Jeff Fenholt, SteveCamp among others. Tim founded The Simply Agape Project in 2001 to get free Christian music to the troops. Recordings have been made with Tim, and friends Alex Acuna, Abe Laboriel SR, Justo Almario,Steve Camp , Jared Ming and some wonderful Independant Christian artists.The Somebody Brave CD also features words of encouragment to the soldiers from Pastors, Moms, Dads, and Lt Col Brian Birdwell a Pentegon 9/11 survivor Tim is married to Donna Wirth and has four children Alan 25,Steven 23, Brittany 22, Bethany 21. Tim has played in numerous churchs as well as shows on TBN. Tim has also performed on JCTV on the show Generation Worship featuring worship leader Jared Ming. Tim has a book published worldwide titled "Pass The Plate And Let Us Prey" (My Search For Black and White Christianity in a Gray Nation)

Thursday, May 24, 2007

Another good article from Extreme Theology

Again I need to point out that in my opinion what Rick Warren has created is in fact a new religion with just enough scripture in it to deceive undiscerning Christians-Tim

From Chris at Extreme Theology-

May 15, 2007
Rick Warren: “Any church that fails to fulfill the five not really a church!”
by Chris Rosebrough

Yes you read that headline correctly. That is a quote from Rick Warren in Mark Kelly’s latest spin piece for Saddleback entitled “Seven myths about ‘Purpose Driven’”.

The piece itself has two wildly surreal statements in it, that if you consider what is really being said, ought to make you question the entire ‘Purpose Driven’ church concept.

The first is a quote from Rick Warren himself:

Rick Warren says: “The five purposes of the church commanded by Jesus in the Great Commandment and Great Commission never go out of style. They are not a fad. They are eternally relevant. Any church that fails to fulfill the five purposes Jesus established for his people is not really a church!”

If your church isn’t fulfilling the 5 Purposes, according to Rick Warren it “is not really a church!”

Maybe its me, but this sure does sound like a dogmatic and judgmental rebuke by Warren. This seems a little out of character for a person who according to his apologists, "prefers behind the scenes persuasion rather than public rebuke."

When you take this statement and add it to the next one, you will really be scratching your head.

Said Kelly:

“ don’t have to be part of any particular denomination to implement PD principles. There are Purpose Driven congregations in more than 200 different denominations and associations. Our desire is to work with denominations to strengthen their churches. Each church can maintain its own heritage and doctrinal convictions while cooperating with others on accomplishing the five purposes...”
This seems really odd to me. On the one hand these folks say that any church that isn’t fulfilling the 5 purposes ‘is not really a church”. But on the other hand ANY church REGARDLESS OF DOCTRINAL CONVICTIONS can be Purpose Driven.

So with these PD folks, the truth of a church’s doctrinal statement doesn’t determine whether or not it is ‘really a church’. But, the thing that matters is whether or not they are fulfilling the 5 purposes.

By Saddleback's own admission, they work with over 200 denominations and help them all be Purpose Driven.

This explains why there are Purpose-Driven Catholics, Purpose-Driven Mormons and soon there will be Purpose-Driven Synagogues. (This must be what Warren means by Deeds not Creeds.)

Do you think there is anything wrong with a definition of church that embraces all churches regardless of doctrinal statements but denies that a church 'is really a church' if it has a difference of opinion with Rick Warren about the purposes it should be fulfilling?

This dichotomy is a little clearer when I put it in a math formula format.

If Rick Warren held both creeds AND Deeds in equal regard we'd expect to see formula 1 as the ONLY true definition of church:

1. Fulfilling 5 Purposes + Sound Doctrine = True Church (Deeds AND Creeds)
But based upon Warren's statement and the fact that ANY church regardless of DOCTRINE can be Purpose-Driven, the Saddleback way of thinking ALSO makes formula 2 a valid formula.

2. Fulfilling 5 Purposes + False Doctrine = True Church (Deeds NOT Creeds)
Warren's ideas also make formula 3 a valid equation.

3. Not Fulfilling 5 Purposes + Sound Doctrine = False Church (Deeds NOT Creeds)
Notice that the thing that decides whether or not a church is a TRUE CHURCH in their way of thinking hinges on fulfilling the 5 purposes. True doctrine is not a deciding factor it is only one of the Purpose Driven 'flavors' of church.

In other words, Warren's dogmatic focus is off. He should be dogmatic about BOTH Fulfilling the 5 Purposes AND sound doctrine. But he's not.

Sorry, but I can't accept this definition of church. Warren and his followers have elevated their ideas about the 5 purposes above sound doctrine. That is why there are Purpose Driven Catholics, Unitarians and United Pentecostals. Each of those groups subscribes to false doctrines and therefore are not part of the true church. But in Warren's way of thinking they are part of the true church.

Sorry but this doesn't fly with scripture.



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