2 Thessalonians 2:7
"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way."
Just a quick comment and I would like your comments on this one.
Ive heard this taught that the church is what is holding this evil back and the evil will be revealed once the church is taken away in a secret rapture.
Most pre tribs teach this position.
The only thing wrong with this is you would have to believe in 2 raptures since Matt 24 teaches a after trib rapture.
Also this verse often in teaching refers to the Holy Spirit, which I believe is the more accurate teaching.
All that being said two things to think about.
Do you really believe the church in general is holding any evil back.
Look at all the false teaching of the Word Faith/ Health and Wealth/TBN teaching.
As well as the man/self centered your church as a profit making business teachings of guys like Rick Warren, Bill Hybels etcc.
I doubt if that self centered church holds any evil back.
Second thought.
How much is the Holy Spirit being asked for guidance these days.
Many pastors buy, borrow or steal many sermons because they are to busy to pray because they are running multi million dollar business's.
How many pastors are on their face begging the Holy Spirit to guide them in guiding their congregations.
With all the false teaching and man centered world based teaching I doubt the Holy Spirit is consulted at all.
Look through Rick Warrens many articles and see how often he suggests using the Holy Spirit to guide you.
Because of course Rick wants to guide you.
So could the Holy Spirit and or the church be taken out of the way simply by grieving the Holy Spirit and relying on man centered methods.
What do you think?
Peace
Tim
Just a quick comment and I would like your comments on this one.
Ive heard this taught that the church is what is holding this evil back and the evil will be revealed once the church is taken away in a secret rapture.
Most pre tribs teach this position.
The only thing wrong with this is you would have to believe in 2 raptures since Matt 24 teaches a after trib rapture.
Also this verse often in teaching refers to the Holy Spirit, which I believe is the more accurate teaching.
All that being said two things to think about.
Do you really believe the church in general is holding any evil back.
Look at all the false teaching of the Word Faith/ Health and Wealth/TBN teaching.
As well as the man/self centered your church as a profit making business teachings of guys like Rick Warren, Bill Hybels etcc.
I doubt if that self centered church holds any evil back.
Second thought.
How much is the Holy Spirit being asked for guidance these days.
Many pastors buy, borrow or steal many sermons because they are to busy to pray because they are running multi million dollar business's.
How many pastors are on their face begging the Holy Spirit to guide them in guiding their congregations.
With all the false teaching and man centered world based teaching I doubt the Holy Spirit is consulted at all.
Look through Rick Warrens many articles and see how often he suggests using the Holy Spirit to guide you.
Because of course Rick wants to guide you.
So could the Holy Spirit and or the church be taken out of the way simply by grieving the Holy Spirit and relying on man centered methods.
What do you think?
Peace
Tim
posted by Tim Wirth | 6:20 PM
4 Comments:
Well, let's see. My church teaches a pre-trib rapture, which I personally believe has the most Scriptural support (although it is not an issue I'd bet my life on or debate to the death by any means); however, I want to say that the removal of the Holy Spirit (Who lives within all believers) is what is emant by "taken out of the way". I'm fairly certain that is the view I have heard taught, but I'd like to get my pastor's more specific take on that issue. What I wonder about is - assuming a pre-trib rapture is the correct view - what about all the Christians who are subsequently martyred during the tyranny of antichrist? Presumably, they would have been converted after the rapture - a la "Left Behind" - but how is that possible without the Holy Spirit? Interesting question. I'll have to ask my pastor when he gets back from vacation.
Second point: about the Holy Spirit not being consulted....it is hard to resist the tendency to be cynical in today's "Church culture", for lack of a better term. I touched on this is my recent blog entry, "Of Brad Pitt, OSAS and Spiritual Angst". (BTW, I've got you on my blog roll.) One of the rhetorical questions I raised was how once-sound teachers can dive headlong into heresy - or simply depart from sound doctrine. As you look around, (and I've looked around quite a bit), sound churches who preach the Word uncompromisingly (without getting side-tracked into un-biblical legalism, anyway) are very much the exception and not the rule.
If we eliminate every church of every denomination that endorses (directly or indirectly) some form of contemplative spirituality, works-based salvation, social gospel, Purpose-Driven Drivel, Emergent, Word-Faith, charismania, dual-covenant theology, secular humanistic psychology (ie "self-help programs"), mysticism, moral relativity or some form of universalism, there wouldn't be too many left, relatively speaking. BUT THERE WOULD STILL BE A SIZEABLE REMNANT. There would be. Sure, there are many enterprising charlatans who in essence "pimp" the Name of the Lord, but there are still many faithful, humble pastors who seek only God's will and serve tirelessly to feed his sheep. They are backed by godly men serving as deacons and elders, and I truly believe this is the work of the Holy Spirit. I live in suburban Massachusetts, not exactly the hub of the Bible belt. Our church, one of the few Gospel-preaching, evangelical churches in the area, had to re-build last year because people are coming in droves. Folks are getting sick of the watered-down gospel of liberalism and liturgical meaninglessness and flocking to where they will be fed. I do encourage you to "visit" our church and hear for yourself: http://heritagebiblechapel.org/
Yes, much of the Church is abandoning her first Love, and no number of man-made programs or feel-good psych-babble will change that. It's the spirit of this world. But, I wouldn't despair just yet. God's not through working here, and His true sheep still hear His voice and seek to spread HIS "agenda".
Hey Marie thanks for your comments as always.
I dont stand on any one view of pre trib or whatever because what will happen will happen. Pre trib folk must believe in 2 raptures though because Matt 24:29-31 shows the trumpet blast and the angels going out to gather Gods elect after the tribulation.
I have spoke with many pastors on this verse who teach pre trib and most choose not to comment because there is really no defence. Read all of Matt 24 and note this is actually Jesus speaking on His own return.
Just a little history as well pre trib rapture has only been taught in the church since the late 1800's based on the vision of a young Scottich girl.
here is a good article on this.
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d760201.htm
Im not really trying to convince you on this certain point.
Whenever the rapture happens Im saved so I will be going. I just dont think the Bible supports pre trib. And remember God could protect us from His wrath even though it may be falling all around us. He has proved this in many places in the Bible.
Thanks again for your comments.
Tim
Tim,
you could very well be right about post-trib rapture -- I have also read a little about it's history being very new and linked to the Scottish girl's "vision". I don't pretend to be an expert on eschatology, but completely take the same view as you - when and how it happens, I know I'm on the right team.
Last night, I received a request to translate some cult literature (I am planning a blog entry on my correspondence with this confused individual), and while surfing today on a related matter found this: http://www.danceart.com/cults/kirov.htm
Given your the discussion here on the Moonies' involvement (in the background, under different guises) in many organizations, I thought it was interesting.
Again Marie thanks for taking part in the conversation here. You always have good input. I hope these article's help you as well.
Be Blessed
Tim
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