The No Goofy Zone Discernment Ministry

The No Goofy Zone is a discernment ministry for saved born again Christians and all who are seeking the truth.We expose non-biblical trends in the church. We are making material available to advance understanding of issue's which endanger Christianity. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit.

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Former drummer for Gary Lewis and The Playboys and The Coasters. Tim has also played with Paul Baloche, Lincoln Brewster, Darlene Zscech and Hillsongs, Jeff Fenholt, SteveCamp among others. Tim founded The Simply Agape Project in 2001 to get free Christian music to the troops. Recordings have been made with Tim, and friends Alex Acuna, Abe Laboriel SR, Justo Almario,Steve Camp , Jared Ming and some wonderful Independant Christian artists.The Somebody Brave CD also features words of encouragment to the soldiers from Pastors, Moms, Dads, and Lt Col Brian Birdwell a Pentegon 9/11 survivor Tim is married to Donna Wirth and has four children Alan 25,Steven 23, Brittany 22, Bethany 21. Tim has played in numerous churchs as well as shows on TBN. Tim has also performed on JCTV on the show Generation Worship featuring worship leader Jared Ming. Tim has a book published worldwide titled "Pass The Plate And Let Us Prey" (My Search For Black and White Christianity in a Gray Nation)

Sunday, November 11, 2007

Dan Kimball Is he or is'nt he


From my friends and brothers and sisters in the Lord at Lighthouse Trails-

Source: Lighthouse Trails

While some begin to see the heresy of Brian McLaren and Doug Pagitt's teachings, confusion has arisen as to who is part of the emerging church and who isn't. As Roger Oakland has stated in his book, Faith Undone, there are certain key elements that distinguish emerging church leaders: promotion of mysticism (i.e., contemplative), kingdom-now eschatology, ecumenism, a laxed view of homosexuality, an anti-biblical overhauling of missions and evangelism, and a drawing toward Catholicism and its practices.

The upcoming Rethink Conference hosted by Robert Schuller at the Crystal Cathedral will be including speakers who embrace many elements of this description. One of those speakers is Dan Kimball. In both his books, The Emerging Church (endorsed heartily by Rick Warren) and They Like Jesus But not the Church, Kimball displays true emerging church characteristics. As thousands of people will flock to Crystal Cathedral to hear contemplative proponents Kimball, Ortberg, New Ager Jon Gordon, Erwin McManus, H.B. London (Focus on the Family), and Kay Warren, may we warn our loved ones, friends, and fellow church members about belief systems that are anti-biblical and very misleading. The following book review should answer questions regarding the spirituality of Dan Kimball:

Dan Kimball's new book, They Like Jesus But Not the Church should really be called They Like (Another) Jesus But Not the Church, the Bible, Morality, or the Truth. Kimball interviews several young people (one is a lesbian) who tell him they "like and respect Jesus" but they don't want anything to do with going to church or with those Christians who take the Bible literally. Kimball says these are "exciting times" we live in "when Jesus is becoming more and more respected in our culture by non-churchgoing people" (p. 12). He says we should "be out listening to what non-Christians, especially those in their late teens to thirties, are saying and thinking about the church and Christianity" (p. 12).

According to Kimball, it is vitally important that we as Christians be accepted by non-Christians and not thought of as abnormal or strange. But in order to do that, he says we must change the way we live and behave. He says things like Christian bumper stickers (p. 40) and Christian words like "fellowship," (p. 41) are "corny" and might offend a non-believer or seeker. Kimball insists (p. 19) that "those who are rejecting faith in Jesus" do so because of their views of Christians and the church. But he makes it clear throughout the book that these distorted views are not the fault of the unbeliever but are the fault of Christians, but not all Christians, just those fundamentalist ones who take the Bible literally, believe that homosexuality is a sin and think certain things are wrong and harmful to society ... and actually speak up about these things.

Incidentally, Kimball devotes an entire chapter to homosexuality, "The Church is Homophobic." Now his chapter titles are supposed to be what these skeptical, disheartened emerging generation persons see in the church. If we would not be homophobic, they would like us much better. Kimball explains:

Quite honestly, and some people might get mad at me for saying this, I sometimes wish this weren't a sin issue [homosexuality], because I have met gay people who are the most kind, loving, solid, and supportive people I have ever met. As I talk to them and hear their stories and get to know them, I come to understand that their sexual orientation isn't something they can just turn off. Homosexual attraction is not something people simply choose to have, as is quite often erroneously taught from many pulpits. (p. 138)
This is alarming that Kimball is saying this. Substitute the sin for pedophilia and hear how it sounds: "I sometimes wish molesting children wasn't a sin issue, because I have met pedophiles who are the most kind, loving, solid, and supportive people I have ever met." Kimball says (p. 110) we need to focus more on what we stand for rather than what we are against. If I had his views I wouldn't want anyone focusing on criticisms against them either.

While the book is a theological disaster, many new believers probably won't know that. That is to be expected. That is why we have pastors and leaders. But this presents some serious concern. One of the most respected leaders in Christendom has his endorsement in the book. Josh McDowell tells readers "it would be foolish" to not carefully study Kimball's book. Gregory Koukl of Stand to Reason (an apologetics ministry) also endorses the book:
With insight, gentleness, and an unswerving commitment to the wisdom of the past, Dan Kimball shows us what we don't want to see but must see if we care about the Great Commission in the twenty-first century.
McDowell's and Koukl's endorsements are nestled between staunch emerging church/New Thought promoters: Leonard Sweet, Tony Jones, Mark Oestreicher (Youth Specialties) and several others. One example of Kimball's poor biblical theology is in his chapter titled: "The Church Arrogantly Claims All Other Religions are Wrong." Kimball refers to John 4 where Jesus talks to the Samaritan woman. Kimballs says: "He [Jesus] stopped and asked questions of the Samaritan woman and didn't just jump in and say, 'Samaritans are all wrong.'" But that is exactly what Jesus did! He didn't ask her any questions. Kimball has misled his readers! Jesus confronted her straight on, something Kimball says (throughout his book) is a terrible thing to do to an unbeliever. Listen to Jesus' words to the woman:
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
Kimball's entire premise is largely based on this type of faulty reasoning, that Christians should not do or say anything that might offend unbelievers, even if that anything is truth and Scripture. But the Bible says that the message of the Cross is offensive and foolish to the unbelieving heart: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (I Corinthians 1:18).

Kimball says that "to them [the unbelievers], Christianity isn't normal." He adds: "This is really important to realize" (p. 29). But the Bible is so clear that those who belong to the Lord Jesus are not looked upon as normal by the world. In fact, Jesus tells us to expect it:
If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." (John 15: 18,19).
Kimball says "Christians are now the foreigners in a post-Christian culture, and we have got to wake up to this reality if we haven't" (p. 30). He is desperate for this realization to happen saying "we aren't respected" by those outside the church nor are we sought after for advice by unbelievers (p. 30). But Christians have always been foreigners in the world, and they have suffered terribly for it. Throughout Christian history, there have been countless murders and atrocities that have been committed against Christians. Jesus said, "I am not of this world" (John 8:23) and also: "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36). The apostle Paul said: "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body...." (Philippians 3:20), and Jesus said: "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world." (John 17:14)

Perhaps what is most damaging about this book is Kimball's black and white, either or reasoning (the very thing he accuses Christians of). He makes it very clear that you cannot be a Christian who takes the Bible literally and also be a humble, loving thoughtful person. They are two different things, according to Kimball. There is no such thing as a loving, humble Christian who takes the Bible literally. His book further alienates believers in a world that is already hostile to those who say Jesus is the only way to salvation, the Bible should be taken literally, homosexuality is a sin, and we are called out of this world to live righteously by the grace of God. Some of Kimball's other black and white statements are: "The church is homophobic" versus "The church is a loving and welcoming community." (Kimball denounces those who take any kind of stand publicly against homosexuality.) Another: "The church arrogantly claims all other religions are wrong" versus "The church is respectful of other people's beliefs and faiths." Once again, Kimball says it can't be both ways. Christians who do claim that all other religions are wrong contrast those who are respectful of other people. He says they can't be both. Click here to read the rest of this article.

More Research on the teachings of Dan Kimball

Erwin McManus Teams Up with Robert Schuller - Could Have Far-Reaching Effects

This article or excerpt was posted on November 2, 2007@ 11:17 am .

From: http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com
Category: * Emerging Church

9 Comments:

Blogger Missoula Boy said...

I find your comments on Brian McLaren almost humorous. Perhaps what Brian does isn't heresy as people judge him for, but that God has laid it on his heart that there is a time of hope for the future beyond their spiritual death in Heaven. Heaven on Earth is a worthwhile thing to attempt regardless if it is a gray area for Christians. Don’t you ever get tired of the multitudes who say that ends times are coming soon? The end times have always been coming soon. This doesn’t justify raping the earth in the meantime.

Matthew 24:
34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

What kind of testament is it to people for Christians to rape the earth then tell others how amazing Jesus is. I love Jesus and God, but I think Brian offers a message of hope for the earth and in heaven. And if you can find passages in the Bible to dispute him I'd like to see that. We Christians are the biggest hypocrites as we destroy the earth and preach repentance.

Matthew 24:
36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.

3:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Matthew 7
Judging Others
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

3:42 PM  
Blogger Tim Wirth said...

Eph 5:11
"Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them."
Tim

5:18 PM  
Blogger Tim Wirth said...

PS Dan Kimball promotes occult practices. I will continue to expose these practices.
Tim

5:19 PM  
Blogger Missoula Boy said...

I see Ephesians 5 speaking of Christian accountability. I'm not clear that verse 11 is a command to expose things in the world, rather a warning to Christians to expose the fruitless deeds of darkness in one another. I'm not familiar with Dan Kimball, but I'm careful to not to look at the problems of someone else and hold them in contempt, rather to work on myself. Thus giving the world an example to follow.

6:32 PM  
Blogger Tim Wirth said...

What we do here is point out error and how it conflicts with scripture. You of course have the freedom here to disagree.
With all respect why comment on a Dan Kimball post if you dont know anything about Dan Kimball?
I know people think we are being mean when we point out error that comes with the territory. But I find that scripture calls us to do this. Paul did it all the time (not that Im any comparison to Paul).
So I appreciate your thoughts but we expose many things that have to do with people who call themselves Christian but by their fruit it shows they are not.
The scripture has a lot to say about false brethern and what to do concerning that. perhaps that would be a interesting course of study for you.
I however do agree that we should be good stewards over everything that God has given us. Many false Emergent teachers just hide behind the green agenda to gain your trust and expose you to a even more hideous agenda, which is coming.
And again I do appreciate your comments.
Tim

2:48 PM  
Blogger Missoula Boy said...

Hi Tim,

Thanks again for the follow up. I follow posting that include references to Brian McLaren. I think he does a good job and is trying to do Godly things to save the planet until Jesus returns. Thanks for the open dialogue.

3:28 PM  
Blogger Tim Wirth said...

Even if we disagree your thoughts and comments are welcome here my friend.
Peace
Tim

3:44 PM  
Blogger Rufus said...

I just read this book. I have a pretty conservative view of the scriptures, but I wasn't as offended as you seem to be of his theology. In fact, in the book he argued very solidly that we should not water down the truth, but that our approach needs to be centered on Christ and not the typical argumentative, won't listen to other view points kind of take that most non-christians have of those who are Christ followers. He also states that most people who described Christians as homophobic, etc really didn't know any Christians who treated them personally the way they claim they view us which says non-christians are believing a stereotype that doesn't always match reality.

I think there must be balance between our theology (truth) and our application of it (grace) as John 1 says of Christ (he was full of grace and truth). Dan Kimball seems to be arguing to keep our truth and never back down from it, but lets change how we approach non-christians with that truth to make it easier to make connections. People view Jesus in a variety of ways...our job is to show them the biblical jesus in our actions as a way to introduce them to the Jesus of the scriptures. When they study God's word, the Holy Spirit is able to convict, and mold their heart to a place of where they put their faith in Christ and seek to be more like Jesus of the Bible vs. the Jesus of pop-culture. Overall, a good book...a challenging book, but I'd advise we look at what he might be right about and filter that through the scripture like the Bereans did. They took everything back to God's word. Dan Kimball's words are not the gospel, or spirit-inspired revelation, but they contain some sobering truth that we would do well to consider. That's my take on this book!

5:32 PM  

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