The No Goofy Zone Discernment Ministry

The No Goofy Zone is a discernment ministry for saved born again Christians and all who are seeking the truth.We expose non-biblical trends in the church. We are making material available to advance understanding of issue's which endanger Christianity. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit.

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Location: Piqua, Ohio, United States

Former drummer for Gary Lewis and The Playboys and The Coasters. Tim has also played with Paul Baloche, Lincoln Brewster, Darlene Zscech and Hillsongs, Jeff Fenholt, SteveCamp among others. Tim founded The Simply Agape Project in 2001 to get free Christian music to the troops. Recordings have been made with Tim, and friends Alex Acuna, Abe Laboriel SR, Justo Almario,Steve Camp , Jared Ming and some wonderful Independant Christian artists.The Somebody Brave CD also features words of encouragment to the soldiers from Pastors, Moms, Dads, and Lt Col Brian Birdwell a Pentegon 9/11 survivor Tim is married to Donna Wirth and has four children Alan 25,Steven 23, Brittany 22, Bethany 21. Tim has played in numerous churchs as well as shows on TBN. Tim has also performed on JCTV on the show Generation Worship featuring worship leader Jared Ming. Tim has a book published worldwide titled "Pass The Plate And Let Us Prey" (My Search For Black and White Christianity in a Gray Nation)

Tuesday, November 13, 2007

Doug Pagitt and more Emergent Madness


I found this transcript on Rob Willmann’s blog.It features the ever popular Doug Pagitt. I hope others will not consider this judging but its scary that Doug pastors a church. Whats even scarier is that Doug calls himself a Christian. Why call yourself something you dont really believe in. Doug may call himself a Christian but for sure he is not a believer in the biblical sense.Check out how Doug does not even give a straight answer to a simple question. The Emergent Church is trying to rewrite scripture and shape God into their own image.
So in fact its not really scripture or the One True God.
I've said it before on Pulpit Magazine and I'll say it again .
The Best way to expose what the Emergent church is all about is to let Doug Pagitt keep on talking.
Here is the transcript-

After listening to the WOTM radio show the other afternoon, I was blown away by how far down the slippery slope the Emergent group has gone. I blogged about it, and then I realized that it would behoove the blogging community to have the entire transcript of the show. So I typed it out. Please forgive my spelling mistakes and lack of clarity in places.

First, here’s the link to the MP3 of the podcast from WOTM:

And here’s the transcript:

(Todd starts presentation 5:46 into the show.)

Intro (Todd Friel): Yes indeedy there is a problem in evangelical Christianity. That’s a bad thing. The good news is there’s some folks called the Emergents who have identified the problem… the problem being: there seems to be no application of the stuff that’s taught in the Bible. It seems to be a rather disconnected sort of faith – bottom line: there appear to be hypocrites and to that, and to all the Emergent folks I say ‘A-MEN’!

This is Way of the Master Radio.

The question then becomes - What do we do now that we’ve diagnosed the problem? There seems to be people who profess a faith in Jesus Christ, but they do not possess that faith. They are not living it.

We agree with the Emergents: That is absolutely pervasive and it is a huge problem. How we go about fixing that is another thing altogether.

We are very happy, and frankly a little surprised . Joining us on the telephone today is Doug Pagitt. You may be familiar with the person’s name – he is one of the … mmm…. leaders. I’m not sure he’d be nuts about that title but he’s definitely one of the higher profile Emergent fellows. He’s the pastor at Solomon’s Porch. You can visit the website: SolomonsPorch.com. You can also visit their website. It’s EmergentVillage.com and he’s with us on the telephone today.

Todd: Doug Pagitt

Doug: Todd Friel. We’re very grateful that you’re coming on the show today. Thank you very much.

Doug: Well thanks for taking a little time for having me on.

Todd: Alright would you, would you agree that we agree there’s something wrong in Christianity that a lot of people don’t act the way they profess. Fair enough?

Doug: Yea, I mean, yea I think that’s true. That’s not really the motivation in my life or the people I hang around with. We’re not uhm, that’s not the prime uh motivator that we have about, you know, the way that we do our church, or the way that we interact with people, but I do think it’s true that many people’s lives stay disconnected from their belief system.

Todd: Then, then speaking as as an emergent fellow, then what is the prime motivator of the emergent movement?

Doug: Uh Uh the prime motivator is to try live well in the world with God, and to invite other people to join in the way of Jesus in the world. So it’s not really trying to fix uhm, struggles that other people, other Christians are having. It’s really trying to join together in what seems to be the uhm active work of God in the world. And uh to invite people to join in that work.

Todd: And what about the afterlife?

Doug: Yea, uhh, I like to refer to it as the forevermore life. Uhm, But yea, I mean, that’s uhm, that’s uh a really important piece of the whole understanding of God is that uh, uh, like at the end of our uh worship gatherings together at our church we say uhm, we recite this uh, this last long sentence out of the book of Jude. And it’s one of those pieces that ends with uhm, with uhm, uhm, calling for the work that God’s gonna do to be now as God has done in the past, does now, and will do evermore. And so it’s this really wonderful notion that the Christian church has always held to – that there’s a sense of the continuation of the continuous work of God.

Todd: Alright.

Doug: And how, you know, how individual people interact in that. I think we best understand that through the – through the resurrection of Jesus. But yeah, that’s what we’re interested in – is inviting people in to participate with God here, as they have in the past. And stay [?] a uhm, uh, a part of the work of God in the world forevermore.

Todd: Alright. I’m going – I’m going to Jude verse 23: “..Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment.”

Doug: Yeah, yeah. It’s helpful, isn’t it?

Todd: Yea, do you think, do you think there’s an eternal damnation for people who are not Christians?

Doug: Yeah, well, I think that there’s.. I think there’s all kinds of … I mean that, that, damnation would sort of be that.. that there’s parts of the uh, life in Creation that seem to be counter to what God is doing and those are the things that are eliminated and removed and done away with. And so I think that’s what damnation is, and so there’s people who want to live out that kind of uhm, wanna have that good judgment – the judgment of God in their life. I mean you know Judge… Judgment in a biblical fashion meaning that God remakes… that God remakes the world.

Todd: OK, Doug, hold on Doug… Doug hold on a second. I have no idea what you just said. Here’s what I think Hell is: eternal damnation, God sends lawbreakers to a place where there’s weeping, there’s gnashing of teeth, a lake of sulpher, the worm never dies, eternal conscious torment. Agree or disagree?

Doug: Disagree.

Todd: What do you think Hell is?

Doug: I think Hell is disconnection and disintegration from God.

Todd: I agree with that also.

Doug: I have NO idea what you mean uh, with those.. uh. Those sound like .. Those sound much more like metaphors than they do like actuality. But I don’t know…

Todd: Well those are the words that Jesus used to describe Hell.

Doug: I know. Oh yeah I know.

Todd: Alright, OK.

Doug: Yes, I know but Jesus [chuckle]but

Todd: So, Doug I….

Doug: But Jesus didn’t use them in a string like that. So you just pulled a bunch of words from Jesus and strung them together in your own way and then made a….

Todd: It’s called systematic theology. Doug, I’m a good Buddist. Do I get to go to Heaven or Hell?

Doug: No, it’s not called systematic theology. It’s called you restating it.

Todd: Doug, I am a good Buddhist. Where do I go when I die?

[silent pause]

Doug: You, you know this is not an interesting conversation for me. Is this what we’re gonna do? You’re gonna… Your gonna put together false little dichotomies and then ask me to answer one sentence and then interrupt my answers?

Todd: I don’t know what’s hard about the question. I am a good Buddhist, where do I go when I die?

Doug: Well you probably go to the funeral home, but depending on where you’re being born if that’s what you’re talking about.

Todd: No, pastor. I’m a good Buddhist. Where do I go when I die?

Doug: [laugh] Ok. This is not.. This is just not an interesting or helpful conversation for me to be part of. So if that’s what we’re doing uh, in this conversation, then uhm… It’s.. it. Because what – what you’re asking in this - in this kind of question has to do with a place. Are you suggesting to me that Heaven is actually a place? When you say where do I go, you’re suggesting to me that the reign of God, that the place of God is an.. is an individual PLACE that you go? Is that what you’re suggesting?

Todd: Yes, sir.

Doug: Where, where is that place?

Todd: It’s called heaven.

Doug: Where is it?

Todd: We don’t know where it is exactly right now.

Doug: Then why would you ask a question, “where do I go?”

Todd: Just because I don’t know where it is doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Besides sir, this is… This is…this is the core of Christianity..

Doug: Then why would you ask where? Why do you ask where?

Todd: This is no-brainer land, sir.

Doug: It is not no-brainer land. It’s a nonsequiter.

Todd: Sure it is. I’m a good Muslim. Where do you think I go, pastor?

Doug: Where do I go? See here we go again. Now you’re talking about a place..

Todd: What happens to my soul when I die?

Doug: Ok, now THERE’s a different question.

Todd: Alright

Doug: There you go.

Todd: What happens to my soul when I die?

Doug: There you go. And I’m not just.. you know. You’re the guy who wants to be precise about words. That’s why you put sentences together like this.

Todd: Don’t you?

Doug: Yes very much…

Todd: OK

Doug: That’s why when you put together questions like that…

Todd: Alright.

Doug: … and ask them they don’t make any sense.

Todd: I’m a good Muslim. What happens to my soul when I die?

Doug: You are… you interact with God, just as every other human being interacts with God.

Todd: You mean Hebrews 9: “It is appointed to a man once to die and then judgment?”

Doug: Right, yea, that’s interaction with…

Todd: So he gets judged?

Doug: Right, that’s interaction with God.

Todd: Uh huh, and so…

Doug: Yeah.

Todd: What’s… what’s going to happen to the… How is God going to judge the good Muslim?

Doug: Does it.. God’s going to judge the life and repair and restore and heal the life of everybody in the same way. There’s gonna be no difference between what God…

Todd: So the Muslim is ultimately not going to be… go to a bad place. He’s ultimately going to be restored with God when he dies?

Doug: No, there’s going to be no difference between the way God going to interact with you when you die and the way God’s going to interact with a Muslim when a Muslim dies.

Todd: So I wanna put… I wanna put this into my fundamentalist language. What I just heard you say is: There is no difference between the Christian and the Muslim afterlife. God is going to have a good place prepared for both of us.

Doug: No, I… No I didn’t say a place. See, here you go again.

Todd: Ok, a good thing, a good event, a good existence.

Doug: I didn’t say a place. What I said was, the way God’s going to interact with you is the same way that God’s going to interact with everybody. The same experience of all of humanity. God will… God will interact with all of humanity in judgment the same, no matter who you are, or what your parents have taught you, or what you believe.

Todd: (softly) Uhhh…

Doug: Now how a person’s life translates into the evermore, that’s something that .. for one to sit on a telephone conversation and say about … nonexistent actual person muslim as compared to Todd, For me to suggest that I’m gonna tell you how God is going to interact with that individual person. What the result of that is going to be is not at all within the bounds of historical Christianity.

Todd: It’s n. But. n.. Mmmmmm… Doug Pagitt, Solomonsporch.com Actually I think that’s exactly what historical Christianity is about and the Emergents are trying to change that.

Doug: I know you think that’s what it is, but I would suggest to you that’s not at all ….

Todd: Ahh..so I’m, I’m wrong.

Doug: (unintelligible) What I would suggest you do is that I suggest you go and read Acts chapters 16, 17, and 18 as we did out loud in our church last night.

Todd: Yep, I’m happy to do that sir, but Jesus, Jesus said that He’s going to judge and it’s going to be sheep and goat.

Doug: And I’d be… and I think you’d find what the apostle Paul says about what happens to all people in their creation and interaction with God. I think that’s where you’ll find it.

Todd: Uhm, It seems to me that he says very clearly that those people whose sins are not forgiven will be destroyed. They will go to Hell. It will be a terrible day. There will be a judgment on those who have never repented and trusted the Savior.

Doug: What, Now, now, here here, here again Todd I think that….

Todd: That’s simple. That’s foundational. That’s orthodox, and anything outside of that is heresy.

Doug: No it’s not Todd. It’s you stringing togeth.. Todd, it’s you stringing together a series of pop phrases that you’ve heard from the Bible..

Todd: (insert indignant/flabbergasted sound here.)

Doug: and making up your own conclusion to them. That’s what you just did. You can play….

Todd: Well. Pop phrases from the Bible. OK.

Doug: You can play the tape back if you want and watch how you took passages from by my count 4 different biblical passages, strung them together, and made your own conclusion.

Todd: How else do you do it, sir?

Doug: Now if your comfortable, if you’re confortable with that being historical Christianity…

Todd: I am, I am. I am very comfortable.

Doug: I certainly wouldn’t…

Todd: I’m very comfortable. How do you put your theology together?

Doug: Because that’s not what it is.

Todd: How do you do it?

Doug: Well what you do is you read the actual Bible story. You read the actual narratives. You read the actual letters. You read what was actually said and you let it speak for itself. You don’t go chopping it up … into it’s own little pieces, string it together, and make your own conclusion.

Todd: Alright, so let’s just do one where Jesus said there’s going to be sheep and goats.

Doug: The Christian church has condemned that kind of behavior from the beginning.

Todd: OK

Doug: And I had no idea you did that kind of stuff because I’m not familiar with you whatsoever, but that, that is just not..

Todd: Alright. Then let’s… Doug…

Doug: …at all the way that a reasonable Christian person should intereact with the Scriptures.

Todd: Well, ok. That’s… that’s the way it’s been done for a long time, but nevertheless.

Doug: No it’s not the way it’s been done for a long time. See, your people…

Todd: Well you’re the one emerging, not me. OK. Nevertheless, let’s take one verse at a time.

Doug: Well, maybe, but your people, but whatever, I don’t know what stream you’re from, but whatever stream it is that taught you how to interact with the Bible in that way…

Todd: That old fashioned grammatical historical approach.

Doug: …you might want to go back and look at some other way to interact.

Todd: Yea, well no I don’t need a new way. The grammatical historical works just fine for me. Well, nevertheless, let’s just take one verse….

Doug: The grammatical historical method? You’re using the historical method?

Todd: Grammatical historical yessir.

Doug: The grammatical historical method?

Todd: Yessir.

Doug: By taking different passages of the Bible…

Todd: Mmmm Hmmm.

Doug: Stringing them together and drawing your own conclusion?

Todd: Yea, that’s how it’s done.

Doug: I don’t think anyone would suggest that that’s the “grammical” (unintelligible)….

Todd: what. Do you come up with a conclusion first, and then go find verses to support it?

Doug: No, you let the verses tell you what the conclusions are themselves.

Todd: I agree with that.

Doug: You don’t pick from four different places….

Todd: I don’t know what the difference is. OK

Doug: … from four different authors .. string them together and then make your own conclusions.

Todd: Alright. OK. Alright. Sir, let’s just focus on verse: Romans says….

Doug: [laughter] Which one? Let’s out loud… which, which verse? Which?

Todd: Let’s just focus on one, that God says that He’s storing up punishment for those who refuse to repent.

Doug: (unintelligible)

Todd: That’s easy. What do you do, what do you do with that verse, sir. What do you do with all the judgment verses? That Jesus said He’s gonna say “Depart from me you worker of iniquity, I never knew you.” How do you as an Emergent deal with those verses?

Doug: I think they have all to do with people being, uh, eliminated from what God is doing in the world. So when judgment comes, the judgment verses, all have to do with what judgment is. And what the Bible says judgment is - is to (Korem sp?) in the Old Testament, in the Hebrew. The “korem”, is to uh, is to replace that which is not in agreement with God with that which IS in agreement with God – This is the same notion as the uh, the uh, the fire that …. purifies. Judgment is when God recreates the world in the way that it ought to be. The purpose of judgment is to make the world the way that it ought to be. So, from Genesis all the way through Revelation, the finalization of judgment, is the recreation of the Heavens and the earth.

Todd: OK, now let’s say that we agree on that.

Doug: That’s what it is.

Todd: Who’s going to, who’s going to be in the, in that nice place? A good Buddhist and a good Muslim, will they go there?

Doug: No, see now now, now again you’ve created this… this no…. this idea, which apparently you’re stuck with here, that there are places.

Todd: Well you’ve just described it, sir.

Doug: No I didn’t just describe it.

Todd: You said He’s going to recreate a heaven and earth.

Doug: No I didn’t just describe another place.

Todd. Oh. What is it then?

Doug: It’s the recreation of all that exists.

Todd: Is is a real place? Is it a real thing?

Doug: Here we go again. I mean, I am starting to worry that maybe what you’re, what you’re articulating here (Todd laughs) is the Platonic understanding of the cosmos.

Todd: Are we here? Sir, are we here? Do we exist?

Doug: That really what you’re into here is some kind of a… of a… a dualistic Platonic understanding of the cosmos. I’m beginning to think that maybe .. you’re gonna suggest next that God is distant and removed from the earth.

Todd: Mmmm… In a sense yes, in a sense no, but nevertheless sir, are we here?

Doug: Well that’s because you .. apparently, yea that would be consistent with this Platonic understanding that Heaven is this other place.

Todd: Am I real? Doug, am I real? Do I exist?

Doug: Well I think so, I’ve only heard your voice, but that… we’ve every indication.

Todd: OK. Well that, that’s good, OK good. So we’re, we’re here. This is actual. This is stuff. We, We exist on this planet right?

Doug: Yea

Todd: OK, so when God creates a new heaven and a new earth, what is that going to be if it’s not an actual place?

Doug: It’s a recreated … heaven and earth.

Todd: OK, fine. Who’s gonna be there?

(Silent Pause)

Doug: There?

Todd: (unintelligible mumbling.)

Doug: See, here we, oh boy. Here we go again. This is just not working.

Todd: I agree!

Doug: (laughing) It’s unbelievable. See I have a very difficult time working with the dualistic Platonic, Platonist like yourselves, because I have to be taken back into … remind myself, that rather than following the Jesus narrative, I have to go into Plato, and Socrates understanding of the cosmos, so they can end up with a Heaven in one place, in one sphere, and functioning by one set of rules…

Todd: So Heaven…. Let me, let me, then let me try to understand you sir.

Doug: ….and then the earth, and then the earth in another sphere, functioning according to a different set of rules.

Todd: Then let me try to understand your narrative. Is Heaven and Hell together?

Doug: Unbelievable.

Todd: I agree. It’s unbeleivable sir, you’re right. Is Heaven and Hell, uh, OK so what is it exactly? (laughter)

Doug: (laughter) See you create this context right, and you create this structure…

Todd: Yes because Jesus said “I go to prepare a place for you.” OK, well, I don’t know.

Doug: …and then you ask about it as a “where” and a place, and then you say to me, “Would you please define for me what it is.”

Todd: Sir, when….

Doug: I mean, If you’re unclear about it, then maybe you ought to, I mean, you can go look at what Plato or Dante’s understanding of Hell is,.

Todd: Yea, well, I don’t, I don’t, yea…..

Doug:…. because the description you gave… The description you gave was….

Todd: You know I’m not doing that to you sir. I’m not, I’m not doing that to you with those kind of reckless characterizations but nevertheless…

Doug: Yes you are.

Todd: Would you, would you preach at the funeral of a Muslim? Pastor would you preach at the funeral of a Muslim?

Doug: Would I preach at the funeral of a Muslim?

Todd: Yessir.

Doug: I’ve never been asked to preach at a funeral of a Muslim.

Todd: Let’s say you were. Let’s say you were.

Doug: Well, if I have a Muslim friend. If one of my Muslim friends were to die and they asked me to talk to the funeral?

Todd: Mmmmm. Hmmmm.

Doug: Course I would.

Todd: And what hope would you offer their Muslim family?

Doug: Oh, I’d offer them the same… the the… the hope that I offer everybody and that’s reconciliation with God that comes through Jesus Christ.

Todd: Alright, sir. Now you recognize, and, and I’m not gonna sling this around recklessly, but if I understand, IF I understand you correctly…. what you’re presenting is outside of orthodox, historic Christianity. You do ahh, realize that, don’t you?

Doug: No, what YOU’RE suggesting in this phone conversation is outside the bounds of orthodox Christianity because it’s riddled with Platonism, and it’s riddled with the cosmology that would never be acceptable to uh, Christians through the ages.

Todd: Like Luther, and Calvin, and Spurgeon, and Whitefield, and Moody? Those guys wouldn’t agree with me, they’d agree with you?

Doug: Yeeaaaa… well, I can’t tell you everything that you believe about things, but if they had to listen to this conversation, I think they’d be terrified by the … [theme music cut off his sentence.]

Todd: I think they’d be terrified too, sir. Doug Pagitt of SolomonsPorch.com. We’ll let everybody decide. Do you understand what just happened here? This is way of the Master radio.

[End transcript.]

2 Comments:

Blogger Marie4thtimemom said...

Sometimes when you ask a direct, doctrinal question, you get a very impressive non-answer. This emergent guy's non-answers weren't even impressive. And yes, it is terrifying that he is in a pulpit.

2:39 PM  
Blogger Marie4thtimemom said...

BTW, Tim, I am interested in submitting to Pulpit Magazine (I noticed John Macarthur is the Editor in Chief - yay!) but could not find any contact info on the web page. Do you know how I can get in touch with them? I would like to submit a couple of my recent blog entries discussing the spiritual climate of our times, and maybe be added to the blogroll as well. Any advice? Thanks in advance.

2:49 PM  

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