Purpose Driven blessed by God or man?
Ive heard Rick Warren and others state 'dont criticize what God is blessing." Leading a person to believe that God is blessing Rick Warrens effort's.
It is my opinion that Rick Warren neither consulted with God or asked the Holy Spirit to lead him into truth.
How can I say this?
Did I read Ricks mind?
Of course not.
I checked Ricks fruit and also check what Rick does in comparison to what scripture states.
Rick consulted unbelievers on what they wanted in a church.
I challenge anyone out there to find in scripture where it is ok to ask a un regenerate , reprobate mind in how to meet with the Body of Christ.
Rick got those thoughts on how to build the church from the pit of hell.
Also read this article and tell me what you think.
Now I know this article will not convince the Warren faithful (hey people still send money to Benny Hinn so am I surprised).
But I would be interested in what you think of the following article from Ricks own backyard.
Sunday, September 24, 2006
Rick Warren moving the message
Warren fused modern marketing techniques to a 'purpose-driven' product.
By GWENDOLYN DRISCOLL
The Orange County Register
LAKE FOREST Ö It was the onerous chore he avoided for months: Write the book.
It was to be a sequel to an earlier book, "The Purpose-Driven Church," a church-growth primer that sold a surprising 1 million copies.
Now his publisher was on the phone, asking Saddleback Church Pastor Rick Warren for his next best-seller
"Rick kept putting them off," his brother, Jim Warren, says. "It was always, 'I'm too busy with the church.' "
His publisher persisted, however, and Warren retreated to his book-crammed study and started typing.
"I think when he began to actually write the book, maybe then Ö he knew," says sister Chaundel Holladay.
Knew that the manuscript he emerged with after seven months of 12-hour days would sell not a mere million copies, but millions. Today, that book Ö "The Purpose-Driven Life" Ö is a publishing and cultural phenomenon, with more than 25 million copies in circulation, its catchphrases ("you are not an accident") excerpted on everything from wall calendars to Starbucks coffee cups, and life-saving miracles attributed to its faith-based message.
It also became, in the process, a parable of faith and commerce.
Warren attributes the book's appeal to its emphasis on unselfish good works and its belief that a higher power guides even the most anguished existence.
"That's refreshing," Warren says. "Because I know instinctively there's something bigger than me to live for.'"
The book's simplicity may also explain its power.
Inside the deliberately non-religious cover of a spreading tree, spirituality is not a matter of complex ritual, but a pragmatic process of cause and effect. Want to go to heaven? Bow your head and ask to receive Jesus. Feel lonely? Join a church and a small group. Want to know your purpose in life? Help the poor.
"God is pleased when our worship is practical," Warren says.
For an American audience awash in choices, "The Purpose-Driven Life's" success may owe much to its prescriptive tone. Warren says he wants to make it easy for people to find God. Or, in this case, a book about God.
Which is why Warren suggested that his publisher, Zondervan Publishing House, sell 400,000 copies of the $20 hardcover for $7.
Zondervan feared it would be giving away the book's profit. Instead, the discount, paired with a book-club-type campaign Warren crafted around the book's launch, created a sensation.
The result was both an international best-seller and a validation of Warren's vision of church as a network through which messages can be moved.
"The organization of the future isn't the organization," Warren says. "It's the network."
Warren's network is pastors.com, a for-profit Web site he created to e-mail advice, as well as sell sermons and books to pastors. Such Web sites are hallmarks of modern megachurches, which often rely as much on the profit they make selling religious products as they do on the tithes they collect each Sunday. In 2003, Purpose-Driven Ministries, of which pastors.com is a part, reported nearly $21 million in revenues. (To see a list of church networks, go to ocregister.com/link.)
Warren put his network to use, contacting 1,200 pastors who had already bought "The Purpose-Driven Church." He offered the pastors and their congregations "The Purpose-Driven Life" at the cut rate. He also offered them a new "40 Days of Purpose" program Warren created, in which small church groups form to read chapters of the book.
The "40 Days" campaign was the "engine" that drove book sales, according to Greg Stielstra, then senior marketing director for Zondervan's Christian trade book department. Reading the book became synonymous with worship. The group setting also reinforced consumer decision-making.
"If your friend is reading it, buying it, chances are you will too," Stielstra says.
Zondervan tracked the results and found that the 400,000 churchgoers bought an average of five copies each for their friends and families Ö at the full retail price.
Sales of "The Purpose-Driven Life" grew as Warren advertised it at the church-growth conferences offered by his Purpose Driven Ministries. Book clubs multiplied as pastors in search of the secret to Saddleback's success promoted a product that might hold the key. About 400,000 church leaders have attended "purpose-driven" trainings to date, according to Purpose Driven Ministries.
Stielstra calls the technique "pyromarketing," in which core supporters of a brand Ö Stielstra calls them "dry tinder" Ö "light the fire" of wider sales through an organized campaign.
He decided to write a book about the book's marketing, titled "PyroMarketing."
Then the book's June 2005 print date was delayed. Stielstra was quoted in Publisher's Weekly saying that Warren was obstructing publication because he did not want the book's success to be associated with marketing.
In a statement to the trade publication Christian Retailing, Warren denied he had opposed publication but said his "concern" was that readers understood that "the worldwide spread of the purpose-driven message had nothing to do with marketing or merchandising. Instead, it was the result of God's supernatural and sovereign plan."
In a subsequent conversation, Warren says his objections rose more from his belief that Stielstra had "absolutely nothing to do" with the book's marketing, a point Stielstra disputes. He then attributed the book's success at least "one-third" to his network.
"Absolutely it was the network," he says. "[But]the book would have died if the content had not met a need. No marketing plan in the world can get people to buy books by the dozens and give them to their friends. They only do that if the content changes their lives."
Stielstra's book was published in September 2005, about the time Stielstra left Zondervan.
"Rick regards marketing as a servant of the gospel," says Edmund Gibbs, professor of church growth at Pasadena's Fuller Theological Seminary. By disputing the role of marketing in the success of "The Purpose-Driven Life," Gibbs says Warren is attempting to defuse "those within the Christian community that say he is where he is because of his publicity machine."
One such critic is Tim Challies, an evangelical writer whose Web log at Challies.com said Warren blurred the line again last year by trumpeting the effect "The Purpose-Driven Life" had on an escaped Atlanta convict, Brian Nichols.
Nichols had taken a young woman hostage in her apartment. That woman, Ashley Smith, says Nichols surrendered himself after she read to him from Warren's book. In initial news reports, she failed to mention the methamphetamine she gave her captor. Also little publicized was Nichols' subsequent conversion to Islam. Despite Smith's admission, Warren said the drug had no effect on Nichols' decision to surrender himself. Instead, he said it was an example of how "God uses imperfect people." He said Nichols' conversion stemmed more from necessity Ö "You gotta convert to Islam if you're in a prison" Ö than belief.
Meanwhile, "The Purpose-Driven Life" rose to No. 2 from No. 54 on Amazon.com's best-seller list. Smith became a spokeswoman for the church's "Celebrate Recovery" addiction program. Warren went on the "Larry King Live" TV talk show to describe how "The Purpose-Driven Life" presold "half a million" copies before it was published, but did not mention the discount he negotiated.
Is Warren Ö a self-described "spiritual entrepreneur" who quotes management guru Peter Drucker's description of Saddleback as the "research and development department" of Christianity Ö winning souls by faith or marketing?
"I feel 100 percent confident that not a single one of our attenders would answer 'marketing,' " Warren says. "They'd say 'the message of the church.' "
Stielstra says the debate hardly matters.
"Marketing done right is almost indistinguishable from ministry," Stielstra says. "It is identifying people with needs and connecting them with people and services that meet their needs."
For a small group of ordinary Orange County residents, the test of these words was about to begin.
Copyright 2006 The Orange County Register
Well folks what do you think?
It is my opinion that Rick Warren neither consulted with God or asked the Holy Spirit to lead him into truth.
How can I say this?
Did I read Ricks mind?
Of course not.
I checked Ricks fruit and also check what Rick does in comparison to what scripture states.
Rick consulted unbelievers on what they wanted in a church.
I challenge anyone out there to find in scripture where it is ok to ask a un regenerate , reprobate mind in how to meet with the Body of Christ.
Rick got those thoughts on how to build the church from the pit of hell.
Also read this article and tell me what you think.
Now I know this article will not convince the Warren faithful (hey people still send money to Benny Hinn so am I surprised).
But I would be interested in what you think of the following article from Ricks own backyard.
Sunday, September 24, 2006
Rick Warren moving the message
Warren fused modern marketing techniques to a 'purpose-driven' product.
By GWENDOLYN DRISCOLL
The Orange County Register
LAKE FOREST Ö It was the onerous chore he avoided for months: Write the book.
It was to be a sequel to an earlier book, "The Purpose-Driven Church," a church-growth primer that sold a surprising 1 million copies.
Now his publisher was on the phone, asking Saddleback Church Pastor Rick Warren for his next best-seller
"Rick kept putting them off," his brother, Jim Warren, says. "It was always, 'I'm too busy with the church.' "
His publisher persisted, however, and Warren retreated to his book-crammed study and started typing.
"I think when he began to actually write the book, maybe then Ö he knew," says sister Chaundel Holladay.
Knew that the manuscript he emerged with after seven months of 12-hour days would sell not a mere million copies, but millions. Today, that book Ö "The Purpose-Driven Life" Ö is a publishing and cultural phenomenon, with more than 25 million copies in circulation, its catchphrases ("you are not an accident") excerpted on everything from wall calendars to Starbucks coffee cups, and life-saving miracles attributed to its faith-based message.
It also became, in the process, a parable of faith and commerce.
Warren attributes the book's appeal to its emphasis on unselfish good works and its belief that a higher power guides even the most anguished existence.
"That's refreshing," Warren says. "Because I know instinctively there's something bigger than me to live for.'"
The book's simplicity may also explain its power.
Inside the deliberately non-religious cover of a spreading tree, spirituality is not a matter of complex ritual, but a pragmatic process of cause and effect. Want to go to heaven? Bow your head and ask to receive Jesus. Feel lonely? Join a church and a small group. Want to know your purpose in life? Help the poor.
"God is pleased when our worship is practical," Warren says.
For an American audience awash in choices, "The Purpose-Driven Life's" success may owe much to its prescriptive tone. Warren says he wants to make it easy for people to find God. Or, in this case, a book about God.
Which is why Warren suggested that his publisher, Zondervan Publishing House, sell 400,000 copies of the $20 hardcover for $7.
Zondervan feared it would be giving away the book's profit. Instead, the discount, paired with a book-club-type campaign Warren crafted around the book's launch, created a sensation.
The result was both an international best-seller and a validation of Warren's vision of church as a network through which messages can be moved.
"The organization of the future isn't the organization," Warren says. "It's the network."
Warren's network is pastors.com, a for-profit Web site he created to e-mail advice, as well as sell sermons and books to pastors. Such Web sites are hallmarks of modern megachurches, which often rely as much on the profit they make selling religious products as they do on the tithes they collect each Sunday. In 2003, Purpose-Driven Ministries, of which pastors.com is a part, reported nearly $21 million in revenues. (To see a list of church networks, go to ocregister.com/link.)
Warren put his network to use, contacting 1,200 pastors who had already bought "The Purpose-Driven Church." He offered the pastors and their congregations "The Purpose-Driven Life" at the cut rate. He also offered them a new "40 Days of Purpose" program Warren created, in which small church groups form to read chapters of the book.
The "40 Days" campaign was the "engine" that drove book sales, according to Greg Stielstra, then senior marketing director for Zondervan's Christian trade book department. Reading the book became synonymous with worship. The group setting also reinforced consumer decision-making.
"If your friend is reading it, buying it, chances are you will too," Stielstra says.
Zondervan tracked the results and found that the 400,000 churchgoers bought an average of five copies each for their friends and families Ö at the full retail price.
Sales of "The Purpose-Driven Life" grew as Warren advertised it at the church-growth conferences offered by his Purpose Driven Ministries. Book clubs multiplied as pastors in search of the secret to Saddleback's success promoted a product that might hold the key. About 400,000 church leaders have attended "purpose-driven" trainings to date, according to Purpose Driven Ministries.
Stielstra calls the technique "pyromarketing," in which core supporters of a brand Ö Stielstra calls them "dry tinder" Ö "light the fire" of wider sales through an organized campaign.
He decided to write a book about the book's marketing, titled "PyroMarketing."
Then the book's June 2005 print date was delayed. Stielstra was quoted in Publisher's Weekly saying that Warren was obstructing publication because he did not want the book's success to be associated with marketing.
In a statement to the trade publication Christian Retailing, Warren denied he had opposed publication but said his "concern" was that readers understood that "the worldwide spread of the purpose-driven message had nothing to do with marketing or merchandising. Instead, it was the result of God's supernatural and sovereign plan."
In a subsequent conversation, Warren says his objections rose more from his belief that Stielstra had "absolutely nothing to do" with the book's marketing, a point Stielstra disputes. He then attributed the book's success at least "one-third" to his network.
"Absolutely it was the network," he says. "[But]the book would have died if the content had not met a need. No marketing plan in the world can get people to buy books by the dozens and give them to their friends. They only do that if the content changes their lives."
Stielstra's book was published in September 2005, about the time Stielstra left Zondervan.
"Rick regards marketing as a servant of the gospel," says Edmund Gibbs, professor of church growth at Pasadena's Fuller Theological Seminary. By disputing the role of marketing in the success of "The Purpose-Driven Life," Gibbs says Warren is attempting to defuse "those within the Christian community that say he is where he is because of his publicity machine."
One such critic is Tim Challies, an evangelical writer whose Web log at Challies.com said Warren blurred the line again last year by trumpeting the effect "The Purpose-Driven Life" had on an escaped Atlanta convict, Brian Nichols.
Nichols had taken a young woman hostage in her apartment. That woman, Ashley Smith, says Nichols surrendered himself after she read to him from Warren's book. In initial news reports, she failed to mention the methamphetamine she gave her captor. Also little publicized was Nichols' subsequent conversion to Islam. Despite Smith's admission, Warren said the drug had no effect on Nichols' decision to surrender himself. Instead, he said it was an example of how "God uses imperfect people." He said Nichols' conversion stemmed more from necessity Ö "You gotta convert to Islam if you're in a prison" Ö than belief.
Meanwhile, "The Purpose-Driven Life" rose to No. 2 from No. 54 on Amazon.com's best-seller list. Smith became a spokeswoman for the church's "Celebrate Recovery" addiction program. Warren went on the "Larry King Live" TV talk show to describe how "The Purpose-Driven Life" presold "half a million" copies before it was published, but did not mention the discount he negotiated.
Is Warren Ö a self-described "spiritual entrepreneur" who quotes management guru Peter Drucker's description of Saddleback as the "research and development department" of Christianity Ö winning souls by faith or marketing?
"I feel 100 percent confident that not a single one of our attenders would answer 'marketing,' " Warren says. "They'd say 'the message of the church.' "
Stielstra says the debate hardly matters.
"Marketing done right is almost indistinguishable from ministry," Stielstra says. "It is identifying people with needs and connecting them with people and services that meet their needs."
For a small group of ordinary Orange County residents, the test of these words was about to begin.
Copyright 2006 The Orange County Register
Well folks what do you think?
posted by Tim Wirth | 10:29 AM
10 Comments:
I will pray...not for Rick, but for all those who hate him and those who attend Saddleback Church. Most have never been to a service at Saddleback. And as far as this 20-part article is concerned, Saddleback member are called "Warren followers". That is not what this body of Christ calls itself, that is what the media dubbed us. Words are twisted into what the interviewer what them to be. Didn't we all learn about propaganda in 7th grade English class? Am I sticking up for Rick, no. He stands before God alone, like we all do. But I can tell you that I have PERSONALLY spoken to hundred of people who came to the Lord through Saddleback Church. I have been a Christian for 30 years and grew up mainly in independent Baptist churhes. I can honestly say (and I have had some major prayer time with my Lord about this): I have grown more as a Christian at Saddleback Church in 5 years then I ever had in the previous 25. Are we not called to make diciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? How do we get to witness if we distance ourselves from those very people we are called to worship to? Saddleback is not for everyone, we all here get that, but for the lost hurting souls have foud Jesus here, it was exactly what it was meant to be. God can not be put into a box, ever. If the Creator of the universe wants to use a simply written book to touch many lives for Him, that is His perogative. If he wants to use a rebel like Martin Luther to change the status quo, that is also His perogative. Who did Jesus build his church from? The locals. So, if Jesus were alive today and eating with the tax collectors, prostitutes and thieves, would you join Him for dinner or think that Jesus merely "got those thoughts on how to build the church from the pit of hell"? Food For thought.
Dear saved by grace: I dont hate anyone I merely want to expose false teaching.
Scripture clearly and plainly spells out how to start a church.
Rick ignored that and choose to go his own way.
And yes he doed draw a big crowd with evrything he does because Rick Warren appeals to peoples flesh not their spirit.
Rick appeared in front of a bunch of Jewish people and never once mentioned Jesus.
How much more evil can you get?
I will pray for you and suggest you read 2 Thess 2:3-12.
We dont need to distance ourselves from the world by no means.
Doesnt mean we have to act like them or use their methods to attract them.
Show me in scripture where it speaks of Jesus or his apostles putting on a horse and pony show to attract a crowd?
You cant because all Jesus and his followers did was preach the gospel.
Some listened.
Some did not.
Jesus's methods did not change or adapt to the crowd he was speaking to ever.
He just preached the Word.
You have been brainwashed by going to Saddleback and I pray that you folks will have the blinders fall off and leave while you can still leave.
I call you Warren followers because Rick preaches a different gospel and a different jesus.
The one true Christ and his apostles never had to play to the crowd.
They never had to because the Holy Spirit lead them into all truth.
Who is leading you into truth?
Also for your own sake look at the next two verses.Keep in mind this is metioning Jesus' teaching not Rick Warrens teaching (Ricks teaching contradicts scripture)
Luke 8: 2 ""Therefore take heed how you hear. For whoever has, to him more will be given; and whoever does not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him."
Also Luke 11:35 ""Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness.
All a follower of Rick Warren has to do is compare what Rick Warren is teaching and his methods to scripture and this should settle who they should follow.
Rick or Jesus?
You decide but you cant follow both.
If you don't hate anyone, why is there a "Porpoise Drive Life Diet" entry on your blog? Is this way of attacking from the Bible? Is this the way a Christian is to show Christ's love? I will read the passages that you suggested and will pray for God's guidance. If the greatest commandment is to love, why the character assassination. It is one thing to disagree (as you have) with another believer, it is quite different to make fun of them. Again I will state that I have had more spiritual growth at Saddleback than elsewhere. Why do you think that is?
Oh, and I don't follw Rick, I follow God.
David Norris posted the satire type article and yes I let it stand.
To many years reading The Wittenburg Door magazine I guess.
Was it you that left the unposted comment on that article with no name?
Thought so.
Sorry you dont see the differance I spoke of on how Jesus preached to the unsaved and Rick entertains the unsaved (at their request I realize).
You have no comments on the differance between the methods Christ used and Warren uses I see.
No problem I realize their is no debate here on that.
I do wish you well though and hope you wake up.
My applologies to you for thinking you created the joke. I always leave my name whether blogging or responding, so, no it wasn't me. What was the comment anyway? Why did you think it was me when I already responded to this one? I stated that I would be reading my Bible and praying. After doing so, only then can I make an educated comment about Christ Jesus' teachings and Rick's teaching.
Ok: Now shame on you saved by grace for lying.
You said
"I always leave my name whether blogging or responding, so, no it wasn't me. What was the comment anyway? Why did you think it was me when I already responded to this one? "
Is this the fruit of Rick Warren and Saddleback.
I have this nifty thing called Site Meter. It tels me who had been on my site etc..
Now I know you are from Laguna Niquel, CA.
I know what time you were on my site plus what your IP adress is.
Which I will not publish I know you left the Anonymous comment because you were the only outclick on the comments from that article today.
That showed me who you are.
Dont worry Im not going to show up at your house or anything.
And I do forgive you for leaving that stupid comment which I did not publish.
You know what it was so let it be between us.
Maybe you should rethink though who you are really following and the fruit coming from that relationship.
I really pray that the Holy Spirit leads you into all truth as you search the scriptures and see if what Rick Warren is saying is really the truth.
I already know its a lie.
Peace
Tim
PS-
Maybe it wasnt you who left the comment I did not publish on Porpoise Driven Life. But you had better be careful because they used your computor to leave the commet
Tim
((Show me in scripture where it speaks of Jesus or his apostles putting on a horse and pony show to attract a crowd?
You cant because all Jesus and his followers did was preach the gospel.
Some listened.
Some did not.
Jesus's methods did not change or adapt to the crowd he was speaking to ever.))
With all respect, Tim, I think you're oversimplifying things here. First of all, the article on this site didn't do much to use Scripture to counter Rick Warren's methodology....it simply assumed that it was wrong, and then offered a lot of opinion.
Secondly, don't forget that Jesus' method of evangelism was also HIGHLY CRITICISED by the orthodox church of His day. He met people where they were at, just as Rick Warren attempts to do. He rubbed elbows with them at the wine tables, earning Him the reputation of being a drunkard who clearly didn't understand God's "pure" methodology for ministry.
I think you're being unnecessarily harsh with Rick Warren, just as people were with Christ. Jesus was accused of being "flagrantly fleshly" because He hung out with the wrong crowd, 'hired' outcasts to be His disciples, and taught them to openly transgress carefully constructed Jewish laws which were the bread and butter of orthodox Judaism. The result was that the "keepers of pure truth" were pretty hot under the collar at our Saviour.
Now you're doing the same thing with Mr. Warren. I'd counsel you to stop using inflammatory language when addressing your concerns. It doesn't help your cause when you come across as obnoxious.
Perhaps you could use a little more Scripture for us to do a "Berean Examination" of this movement?
Blessings!
Alan-With all respect as well we use avariety on article to expose Warren here and the bottom line is it odesnt really matter what I think or say but what scripture teaches. And we do make the comparisons here. There is a ton of articles that holds Ricks new teaching up to the Bible.
I suggest you search and read them. I do understand your point though.
The point of the article was to point out one thing.
Is Ricks success blessing by God or not.
Thats just one aspect of Rick Warren.
There is a lot more to this all which we cover here at The Simply Agape project.
But I do appreciate your thoughts and will take your admonitions to heart. I do tend to get in the flesh sometimes over these issues and for that I am sorry.
I do believe the gospel's and entire New Testement most of all Acts tells us how to set up a church and preach the gospel.
It really is very simple.
With all respect I think we have made it complicated.
I love music but I just cant find in scripture where God used it to draw a crowd, entertainment either.
I do know music will minister (many different kinds of styles).
But I also cant find it where it was used as the centerpiece of ministry.
Im not saying to take ourselves out of the world.
But we dont have to be like theworld making ourselve a enemy of God either.
The simplicity and beauty of the gospel still works with nothing added to it.
Tim
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