The No Goofy Zone Discernment Ministry

The No Goofy Zone is a discernment ministry for saved born again Christians and all who are seeking the truth.We expose non-biblical trends in the church. We are making material available to advance understanding of issue's which endanger Christianity. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit.

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Location: Piqua, Ohio, United States

Former drummer for Gary Lewis and The Playboys and The Coasters. Tim has also played with Paul Baloche, Lincoln Brewster, Darlene Zscech and Hillsongs, Jeff Fenholt, SteveCamp among others. Tim founded The Simply Agape Project in 2001 to get free Christian music to the troops. Recordings have been made with Tim, and friends Alex Acuna, Abe Laboriel SR, Justo Almario,Steve Camp , Jared Ming and some wonderful Independant Christian artists.The Somebody Brave CD also features words of encouragment to the soldiers from Pastors, Moms, Dads, and Lt Col Brian Birdwell a Pentegon 9/11 survivor Tim is married to Donna Wirth and has four children Alan 25,Steven 23, Brittany 22, Bethany 21. Tim has played in numerous churchs as well as shows on TBN. Tim has also performed on JCTV on the show Generation Worship featuring worship leader Jared Ming. Tim has a book published worldwide titled "Pass The Plate And Let Us Prey" (My Search For Black and White Christianity in a Gray Nation)

Thursday, July 27, 2006

The tithe is it for today?

Great new article from my friend Mike at Let Us Reason.
We should always give to help the poor and needy in our community.
We don't give to turn our churches into the next Christian Disneyland as Rick Warrren has taught many foolish undiscerning pastors.
here is the article-

article by Berit Kjos "Emerging "Christianity" Who defines the Kingdom of God

Great article on the OOZE emerging from Christianity by my sister and friend in the Lord Berit Kjos. I encourage you to read Berit's other article as well.


By Berit Kjos

May 13, 2006

"What if Jesus' secret message reveals a secret plan?" asks Brian McLaren in his new book, The Secret Message of Jesus. "What if he didn't come to start a new religion--but rather came to start a political, social, religious, artistic, economic, intellectual, and spiritual revolution that would give birth to a new world?"[1-p4]

Nothing secret about that notion! That's what many believed back when Jesus first demonstrated His power among His people. But Jesus corrected them: "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36)

Yet, emerging church movements today are still trying to move the boundaries of His Kingdom. They have redefined God's Word and are fast embracing the latest versions of the old Gnostic quest for secret knowledge (gnosis) and self-actualization, whether through mystical experience or collective imagination.

Stamping out faith in Biblical absolutes is central to this transformation. A mind anchored in God's Word won't compromise, but when that anchor is removed, the current of change can carry that mind anywhere. As Jesuit scholastic, Mark Mossa, wrote in his endorsement of Brian McLaren's latest book: "The Secret Message of Jesus challenges us to put aside our sterile certainties about Christ and reconsider the imaginative world of Jesus stories, signs and wonders."[1]

In this imaginative world, church leaders envision a spiritual oneness that must exclude God's "divisive" gospel and the "offensive" certainties that spawned its hope. What counts are 'deeds, not creeds'! Popularized by Rick Warren, this slogan paves the way for all religions to agree on the new terms. McLaren summarizes it well:

"...many Hindus are willing to consider Jesus as a legitimate manifestation of the divine... many Buddhists see Jesus as one of humanity’s most enlightened people.... A shared reappraisal of Jesus’ message could provide a unique space or common ground for urgently needed religious dialogue.... This reappraisal of Jesus’ message may be the only project capable of saving a number of religions."[1-p7]
Which man-made religions might be saved by this project? What about the first commandment: "You shall have no other gods before Me"? (Exodus 20:3)

Today's reappraisal of truth challenges us to examine this earthly "Kingdom of God" from the perspective of the Biblical Kingdom of God. Let's start with a look at our King.


Growing up in Norway during the post-war years, I loved our human king. The tales of his kindness and courage during the Nazi occupation had inspired our nation, and he became my model for goodness and courage. Like him, I wanted to be brave enough to die rather than surrender to an enemy.

Years later I discovered that this heroic leader was nothing compared to my heavenly King. Yet my earthly king gave me a glimpse of approachable majesty that I continue to treasure. I began to see that we, the citizens of a heavenly Kingdom, resemble a nation of loyal subjects who -

love and obey their King

discover in their common goal and spiritual warfare a blessed fellowship that can rarely be found apart from pain and persecution

persevere -- without compromise -- to the end.
The world didn't welcome our true King, for "men loved darkness rather than light." [John 3:19] They didn't want a Savior who questioned their shallow delights and crushed their hope for an earthly kingdom. They despised his call to repentance, rationalized their own need for redemption, and ignored His message: "My kingdom is not of this world."

This wonderful King now reigns from His heavenly realm, yet is ever present in and with His own people -- those who are "crucified with Christ," filled with His Spirit," and delight in His Kingdom. [Luke 17:20]

"Enter by the narrow gate," He told us, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it." But "narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14


Few choose His narrow ways these days. The world's superhighway looks far more enticing! Its deceptive blend of hopeful truths and deadly lies thrills the human nature, and McLaren's inclusiveness fits right in:

"...the kingdom of God will be radically, scandalously inclusive. As we’ve seen, Jesus enjoys table fellowship with prostitutes and drunks.... He affirms and responds to the faith of Gentiles—Romans and Syrophonecians and Samaritans."[1-p94]
No! Jesus never set aside His eternal laws in order to affirm other religions. Nor did he "enjoy" drunks and prostitutes. But He loved and forgave humble and repentant sinners. The apostle Paul illustrates this unmerited grace:

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
McLaren does mention "repentance." But he redefines it in terms that fit today's transformational process:

"This, by the way, is what the problematic word repentance is all about. The word means to rethink—to reconsider your direction and consider a new one, to admit that you might be wrong, to give your life a second thought, to think about your thinking."[1-p47]
Wrong in what way? By breaking God's law? Or by resisting the new inclusive thinking? The context suggests the latter, for the new view of the cross ignores God's moral laws and eliminates the need for genuine repentance.

Words such as "repent" or "rethink" now imply a willing rejection of the supposedly "narrow" Biblical thinking, which hinder planned change. The new thinking must be flexible, natural, and collective. Notice again how McClaren blends truth with lies:

"...what is the goal of this suffering sacrifice, this self-giving to the point of blood to achieve the Pax Christi? It is a new and lasting reconciliation between humanity and God, and among all the at-odds individuals and groups that comprise humanity. ... Paul said it like this: 'Old distinctions like Jew and Gentile, slave and free, male and female no longer exist, for you are all one in Christ.'... Today, he might speak of reconciliation.... Christians with Jews and Muslims and Hindus."[1-p99-100]
But Paul wrote his letter to Christians, not to unbelievers. His assurance of oneness "in Christ" applies only to those who have been joined to Jesus through the cross. "I am the way, the truth, and the life, said Jesus. "No one comes to the Father except through Me.'" John 14:6


In spite of his call for radical inclusiveness, McLaren's earthly kingdom does exclude certain groups. The criteria for inclusion is the "new way of thinking" -- a phrase emphasized in UNESCO's 1995 report, "Our Creative Diversity." It tells us that "The challenge to humanity is to adopt new ways of thinking, new ways of acting, new ways of organizing itself in society, in short, new ways of living."[2] Compare that UN goal with McLaren's mission:

"A high fence that excludes everyone won’t do, nor will no fence at all. What we need is a requirement that those who wish to enter actually have a change of heart—that they don’t sneak in to accomplish their own agenda, but rather that they genuinely want to learn a new way of thinking, feeling, living, and being in 'the pastures of God.'” [1-p165]

"The kingdom of God, then, seeks a third way: not exclusiveness and rejection... but rather purposeful inclusion. In other words, the kingdom of God seeks to include all who want to participate in and contribute to its purpose, but it cannot include those who oppose its purpose."[1-p167]
Whose purpose? Since McLaren's whole message rests on man's imagination rather than God's unchanging Word, should we trust his "purpose?" No! [See Dealing with Resisters"]

McLaren isn't alone. "America's pastor" Rick Warren predicted "that fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be 'one of the big enemies of the 21st century.'"[3] He would probably agree with McLaren's criteria for citizenship:

" be truly inclusive, the kingdom must exclude exclusive people, to be truly reconciling, the kingdom must not reconcile with those who refuse reconciliation.... So what do you do? If you’re Jesus, you take whatever space you are given and let God’s kingdom be made visible and real there. ... And if critics see you as a transgressor and criticize you for opening the doors and expanding the boundaries, you go pursuing your purpose, making it clear that the kingdom of God is open to all, except those who want to ruin it by dividing it against itself."[1-p69-170]

"Instead of being about the kingdom of God coming to earth," wrote McLaren, "the Christian religion has too often become preoccupied with abandoning or escaping the earth and going to heaven." [1-p78]

That may be true of some who call themselves Christian, but the faithful servants I know focus on fulfilling -- not escaping -- their God-given assignments here on earth. By His grace, they serve their beloved Lord wherever He sends them. And when their work on earth is done, they, like Paul, will delight in the Master's welcome: "Well done, good and faithful servant.... Enter into the joy of your Lord." (Matthew 25:23)

"If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God." Colossians 3:1-3

Click here for part -----> 1, 2,


1, Brian McLaren, The Secret Message of Jesus: Uncovering the Truth that could change everything (Nashville: Thomas Nelson's W Publishing Group, 1006), page 4.
2, Our Creative Diversity, UNESCO, 1995, p.11.
3, Paul Nussbaum, "The purpose-driven pastor," The Philadelphia Inquirer, January 8, 2006

© 2006 Berit Kjos - All Rights Reserved

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Berit Kjos is a widely respected researcher, writer and conference speaker. A frequent guest on national radio and television programs, Kjos has been interviewed on Point of View (Marlin Maddoux), The 700 Club, Bible Answer Man, Beverly LaHaye Live, Crosstalk and Family Radio Network. She has also been a guest on "Talk Back Live" (CNN) and other secular radio and TV networks. Her last two books are A Twist of Faith and Brave New Schools. Kjos Ministries Web Site:



Wednesday, July 26, 2006

A Preview of a Coming Attraction That You DON'T Want To Be Here For

Can you discern the coming fire on the horizon? "As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the days of the Son of Man" - Luke 17:26. In the days of Noah wickedness was great on the earth and mankinds thoughts were only evil continually (Genesis 6:5-6). Water was used in the first judgment but now we should be troubled by the approaching firestorm off in the distance. Can anyone yet feel that heat? Now it should be noted that God doesn't want anyone to perish (2 Peter 3:9) but that ALL should come to repentance. Mankind seems to have other ideas though. "Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, and their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths"- Zechariah 14:12.

If you are one that does not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ that one day awaits you but God doesn't want any of that preview of coming attractions to overtake you. "What manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness?"- 2 Peter 3:11. How would you answer that question? If you've ever dropped an alka seltzer in a glass of water and watched it dissolve you will be dissolving even faster in judgment.

But that will be nothing compared to an eternity in the tormenting flames of the lake of fire forever and ever (Revelation 20:14). All that can be avoided if you will only accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Or do you prefer watching that approaching firestorm overtake you until there is nothing you can do about it?
"What will a man give in exchange for his soul?"- Mark 8:37.

Tuesday, July 18, 2006

Mirror, Mirror, Art Thou Blessed?- Part Two

Theory is not the important aspect of faith; Practice is! How about a glass of Scripture to prove this point? "Whoever has this world's good and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him? Let us not in word or in tongue but in deed and in truth"- 1 John 3:17-18. If you send a starving brother or sister away with only your well wishes, how does the love of God abide in you? What about the next time you took a glance in your spiritual mirror? How would your soul look to you at that moment?

"Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves"- James 1:22. All too many of us glance into our spiritual mirror and we can only see darkly for the moment. Yet one day we shall see face to face. It takes the light of Christ to permeate that dark mirror because He is the light of the world (John 8:12). Those that follow Him will not walk in darkness but have the light of life.

When you become doers of the word, and not hearers only, you begin to harvest the blessings of the glass of Scripture to the point where discernment becomes a part of your soul. Does your soul have the habitual action of having your senses exercised to discern both good and evil (Hebrews 5:14)? If not, then your glass of Scripture is only half-full, if even that. The word of God to this evangelist is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of his heart as we partake of the glass of Scripture often and we can honestly say that we do get a blessing out of our mirror. Do you?

Monday, July 17, 2006

New Gary Gilley article on the Emergent Church

The Emerging Church - Part 3
June 2006 - Volume 12, Issue 6

How those professing to be believers understand the message of the gospel will determine how they view their mission in this life. Since the emergent church sees the gospel not merely as the redemption of lost souls but also as the restoration of the planet and salvation from man’s inhumanity to man, they comprehend their task as Christians differently from that of most evangelicals. They call it “missional”.

Emergent Mission: Missional

Missional is a term that seems to be drawn from the writings of missiologist Lesslie Newbigin who pops up all over emergent literature. It is difficult to pin down a good definition of missional, but it seems to mean that as Christians we exist to serve. We serve by loving and living in such a way that we bless those around us. But more than that, we are to be engaged in changing and even creating culture as we bring the kingdom of God to earth. Rather than calling people out of this world system and into “the kingdom of His beloved Son” (Colossians 1:13), we are to bring the kingdom to them. It would appear that the goal of the missional Christian is to transform the “domain of darkness” (Colossians 1:13) into the kingdom of God. McLaren tells us that his missional calling is summed up in these words, “Blessed in this life to be a blessing to everyone on earth.”[1] He adds, “My mission isn’t to figure out who is already blessed, or not blessed, or unblessable. My calling is to be blessed so I can bless everyone.”[2] Further,

From this understanding we place less emphasis on whose lineage, rites, doctrines, structures, and terminology are right and more emphasis on whose actions, service, outreach, kindness, and effectiveness are good…. [In order] to help our world get back on the road to being truly and wholly good again, the way God created it to be…. We’re here on a mission to join God in bringing blessing to our needy world. We hope to bring God’s blessing to you, whoever you are and whatever you believe, and if you’d like to join us in this mission and the faith that creates and nourishes it, you’re welcome.[3]
We get a better understanding of where McLaren is headed when he writes, “I hope that both they (people everywhere) and I will become better people, transformed by God’s Spirit, more pleasing to God, more of a blessing to the world, so that God’s kingdom… comes on earth as in heaven.”[4] And what kind of people will populate this kingdom? Apparently people from all faith and religions.

Although I don’t hope all Buddhists will become (cultural) Christians, I do hope all who feel so called will become Buddhist followers of Jesus; I believe they should be given that opportunity and invitation. I don’t hope all Jews or Hindus will become members of the Christian religion. But I do hope all who feel so called will become Jewish or Hindu followers of Jesus.[5]
It doesn’t take long to realize that the kingdom of the emergent community is not the kingdom of God, nor the church, as described in Scripture – unless the missional mandate is to fill the kingdom with tares (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43). But once this unbiblical view of God’s kingdom is accepted, what is our mission—that is, how do we live missionally?

Rob Bell writes, “For Jesus, the question wasn’t how do I get into Heaven? but how do I bring heaven here?... The goal isn’t escaping this world but making this world the kind of place God can come to. And God is remaking us into the kind of people who can do this kind of work.”[6] Dan Kimball adds, “Our faith also includes kingdom living, part of which is the responsibility to fight locally and globally for social justice on behalf of the poor and needy. Our example is Jesus, who spent His time among the lepers, the poor and the needy.”[7]

These quotes give good examples of half truths twisted into distorted vision. Did Jesus show compassion and minister to the poor? Certainly, but did Jesus, or the apostles after Him, fight for social justice on behalf of the poor and needy? Not at all. While Jesus, through the transformation of lives, began a process that would revolutionize much of the world in regard to injustice, He never made these things a central platform of His ministry nor that of the church. Jesus said virtually nothing about the environment, political tyranny, eradication of poverty and illiteracy, elimination of deadly disease or other social ills. This does not mean that these things are not important, but they are obviously not the heart of His ministry which was to save us from our sins and enable us “to become the righteousness of God in Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus could have started a social revolution without going to the cross, but without the cross we could not be redeemed from sin. Our mission is to call people “out of darkness into His marvelous light” (1 Peter 2:9).

But the missional agenda is different. Here we are to bless people, for that is why God has chosen us – to be a blessing to others.[8] What does it mean to be a blessing? Apparently it does not mean coming to saving faith in Christ, because Bell tells us that “God blesses everybody. People who don’t believe in God. People who are opposed to God. People who do violent, evil things. God’s intention is to bless everybody.”[9] And how does this blessing happen? It happens as the church gives up its efforts to convert people to Christ and simply serves them: “The most powerful things happen when the church surrenders its desire to convert people and convince them to join. It is when the church gives itself away in radical acts of service and compassion, expecting nothing in return, that the way of Jesus is most vividly put on display.”[10] In this way ( Bell tells us) the “gospel is good news, especially for those who don’t believe it…. [As a matter of fact] if the gospel isn’t good news for everybody, then it isn’t good news for anybody.” [11]

But is the gospel good news for everybody? It may very well be a blessing to have Christian people treat you with the love of Christ, but Jesus and the Scriptures could not be more clear that those who do not know Christ are under the wrath of God (Romans 1:18ff), will perish (2 Thessalonians 2:9), are eternally doomed (Luke 12:46-48) and will spend eternity in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15) – hardly good news to those who reject Him.

Emergent Scripture

Many of the unusual positions held by the emergent leaders stem directly from their theology of the Scriptures as well as their hermeneutical approach. First, insiders of the emerging church “conversation” are fond of expressing their excitement and fidelity to the Word of God, even as they undermine it. McLaren says, “I want to affirm that my regard for Scripture is higher than ever.”[12] Bell tells us that for over ten years he has oriented his life around studying, reading, and trying to understand the Bible.[13] One would have to wonder why Bell devotes so much time to the understanding of the Bible since he apparently agrees with his wife who stated in a joint interview that she has “no idea what most of it means. And yet life is big again.”[14]

In order to press home their views, the emergent leaders must perform some interesting gymnastics with the Scriptures. How can someone express high regard for Scripture yet come up with such fanciful interpretations? First, they question inspiration. Wondering out loud about Paul’s epistles, Bell writes, “A man named Paul is writing this, so is it his word or God’s Word?’[15] McLaren pulls out the old Jesus versus Paul card, “We retained Jesus as Savior but promoted the apostle Paul (or someone else) to Lord and Teacher…. And/or decided that Jesus’ life and teachings were completely interpreted by Paul.”[16] Bell, in complete ignorance of history and the doctrine of biblical preservation, informs his readers that the canon came about as a result of a vote of the church fathers: “In reaction to abuses by the church, a group of believers during a time called the Reformation claimed that we only need the authority of the Bible. But the problem is that we got the Bible from the church voting on what the Bible even is.”[17]

Anyone still clinging tenaciously to the Word, after inspiration is denied, will further loosen his grip when he discovers that the Scriptures are not inerrant, infallible nor authoritative. McLaren said these are words related to a philosophical belief system that he used to hold. But he no longer believes the “Bible is absolutely equivalent to the phrase ‘the Word of God’ as used in the Bible. Although I do find the term inerrancy useful… I would prefer to use the term inherency to describe my view of Scripture.”[18] By the use of inherency he is dusting off the neo-orthodox view of the Scriptures, which taught that the Bible contains the “word of God” but is not the completed Word of God, for God’s Word can be found in anything He “inspires.”

If you have any confidence left in Scripture at this point, McLaren and his friends can take care of that by telling you that you have been misreading the Bible all along. “There is more than one way to ‘kill’ the Bible,” he says. “You can dissect it, analyze it, abstract it. You can read its ragged stories and ragamuffin poetry, and from them you can derive neat abstractions, sterile propositions, and sharp-edged principles.”[19] To the emergent people the Bible was never intended to be studied and analyzed; it was meant to be embraced as art, to be read as a story. The proof is that it is written as narrative and poetry and story. Granted much of it is in this genre but, as D. A. Carson points out, much of it is also “law, lament, instruction, wisdom, ethical injunction, warning, apocalyptic imagery, letters, promises, reports, propositions, ritual, and more. The easy appeal to the overarching narrative proves immensely distortive.”[20] Regarding Scripture, Carson leaves us with a powerful warning: “At some juncture churches have to decide whether they will, by God’s grace, try to live in submission to Scripture, or try to domesticate Scripture.” [21]

Emergent Hermeneutics

With such an understanding of the Scriptures how can the emerging church claim to be in any sense devoted to the Bible? By developing new hermeneutics. Hermeneutics is the science of interpretation involving rules and principles that enable us to interpret anything we read, from the newspaper to the Bible, although the word is used almost exclusively in reference to Scripture. The hermeneutic used by most of us all of the time in extrabiblical literature could be called “normal” or “literal.” That is, we believe that words make sense, can be understood and can communicate a message that the author wants to convey. When we read tax laws, as confusing as they might be, we approach them though normal hermeneutics believing that we can and must understand what they say. When we turn to the sports page of a newspaper and read that such-and-such team just won the championship, we naturally believe that a fact has been communicated (the team won) and that we can understand what the author of the article has said, all because we use normal hermeneutics.

But when it comes to Scripture, many are not content to use normal hermeneutics (called grammatical-historical by theologians). Rather many approaches to interpretation have been invented. We have allegorical and devotional hermeneutics which add supposed hidden meanings to words and texts, liberal hermeneutics which deny the supernatural and anything that is not politically correct at the moment, and neo-orthodox hermeneutics which say that anything that “inspires” us is the word of God to us.

More recently new hermeneutical approaches have been invented, each attempting, in my opinion, to circumvent the clear teaching of the Word. At least three new hermeneutics are making the rounds in emergent circles:

1) Postmodern hermeneutics (or hermeneutics of suspicion): Since postmodernism is laced with deconstructionism, and since the emergent church is the postmodern church, it is only natural that a postmodern hermeneutic of Scripture would be developed and employed in this movement. McLaren explains it well, “The Bible requires human interpretation, which was [is] a problem…. How do “I” know the Bible is always right? And if “I” am sophisticated enough to realize that I know nothing of the Bible without my own involvement via interpretation….What good is it, liberals would ask conservatives, to have an inerrant Bible if you have no inerrant interpretations?…”[22]

I trust these abbreviated quotes express the postmodern approach to Scripture. Even if they feign belief in an inspired, inerrant Bible, it is of little consequence because we lack inerrant interpreters. In the emerging church’s view, the Bible may very well be communication of truth from God to man, but since we are incapable of interpreting the Scriptures “truthfully” it matters little.

Of course, employing postmodern hermeneutics renders the Scriptures impotent, and causes us to ask why God bothered at all trying to communicate with mankind? And what did God mean in Psalm 19 when he tells us of the benefits and power of the Word? And why did Paul tell Timothy to preach the Word (2 Timothy 4:2) if there is nothing in the Word that can be taught with confidence? While we will agree that infallible and inerrant interpreters are nonexistent, it does not follow that the Bible cannot be understood, rather the vast majority of the Scriptures are clear and comprehensible.

2) Rhetorical hermeneutics: McLaren defines this as,

An approach to Scripture that among other things tells us that we normally pay too much attention to what the writers are saying and not enough to what they are doing. Rhetorical interpretation would ask, “What is Jesus trying to do by using the language of hell?…”[23]

In other words, since we can’t understand words, by postmodern necessity we are free to ignore words and try to interpret actions. This is hardly a step in the right direction as anyone who tries to interpret body language could testify.

3) Redemptive Hermeneutics: This is a methodology invented by Dallas Theological Seminary graduate William Webb and endorsed by Dallas professors such as Darrell L. Bock and Stephen R. Spencer, originally in order to provide some kind of justification of the egalitarian movement. Unlike many egalitarians, Webb concedes that, if the Bible is read using normal hermeneutics, men and women are given different roles and functions in the home and in the church. Webb’s solution is to move beyond the written words to the spirit of the words which will allow accommodation for the views and attitudes of our age. “While Scripture had a positive influence in its time, we should take that redemptive spirit and move to an even better, more fully-realized ethic today."[24] Why is this important? Because “Christians have to reevaluate their beliefs due to changing attitudes toward women and toward homosexuals.”[25]

McLaren uses this hermeneutic to teach that the Holy Spirit will continue to lead us to new truth beyond the written word. “I can’t see church history in any other way, except this: semper reformanda, continually being lead and taught and guided by the Spirit into new truth.”[26] Bell uses the same hermeneutic to make this comment on Matthew 16:19 and 18:18, “[Jesus] is giving his followers the authority to make new interpretations of the Bible” (emphasis his).[27] These new interpretations lead to a new church, “It is our turn to step up and take responsibility for who the church is going to be for a new generation. It is our turn to redefine and reshape and dream it all up again.”[28] But they are wrong. It is not up to us to redefine, reshape and dream up the church again; God has already settled this matter.

What these new hermeneutics have in common is the deliberate movement away from the words and message of Scripture to a new message beyond the pages of the Word. In the process, the Bible becomes nothing more than a shell or perhaps a museum piece to be admired but ignored. Scripture as handed down by God has been replaced with the imaginations of man in order to fit more succinctly with our culture. But if we have no authoritative word from God, with what is the church left? Nothing but mystery and mysticism.


The emerging church is not excited about truth (as a matter of fact staying true to their postmodern roots, they reject and are suspicious of truth claims) but they are enamored with mystery. Donald Miller writes his book Blue Like Jazz to develop this very theme. He summarizes his thoughts,

At the end of the day, when I am lying in bed and I know the chances of any of our theology being exactly right are a million to one, I need to know that God has things figured out, that if my math is wrong we are still going to be okay. And wonder is that feeling we get when we let go of our silly answers, our mapped out rules that we want God to follow. I don’t think there is any better worship than wonder.[29]
When Rob Bell is faced with giving answers to the pertinent issues of life such as heaven, hell, suicide, the devil and God or love and rape, he has no answers – just hugs. “Most of my responses were about how we need others to carry our burdens and how our real needs in life are not for more information but for loving community with other people on the journey.”[30] But the classic answer belongs to McLaren, who virtually closes his book A Generous Orthodoxy with this statement:

Consider for a minute what it would mean to get the glory of God finally and fully right in your thinking or to get a fully formed opinion of God’s goodness or holiness. Then I think you’ll feel the irony: all these years of pursuing orthodoxy ended up like this – in front of all this glory understanding nothing” (emphasis his).[31]
There we have it. Ultimately, we know nothing. Even though Jesus was clear that we worship God in spirit and in truth (John 4:23), in the emergent church there is no truth, no theology, no understanding of God. However, this does not stop them from embracing the presence of God or so we are told. How does such a “faith” survive? On the basis of mysticism.


Peter Rollins, emergent leader with Ikon in Northern Ireland , says, “We at Ikon are developing a theology which derives from the mystics, a theology without theology to complement our religion without religion.”[32] Emergent leaders can say such things because of their overbearing emphasis on experience. Kimble has it backwards when he asserts, “The old paradigm taught that if you had the right teaching, you will experience God. The new paradigm says that if you experience God, you will have the right teaching.”[33] Carson is correct, “For almost everyone within the movement, this works out in an emphasis on feeling and affections over against linear thought and rationality, on experience over against truth.”[34] The emerging church is a movement in search of an experience, not the truth. They seem to have little realization that an experience based on anything but truth is a mirage. The Scriptures never deny the proper place of experience, but our Lord says, “You will know the truth and the truth will make you free” (John 8:32). The emergent church is a movement that is in bondage to its own imagination, not one held captive to the truth of God.


[1] Brian McLaren , A Generous Orthodoxy ( Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2004), p. 113.

[2] Ibid.

[3] Ibid., p. 223, 234.

[4] Ibid., p. 263.

[5] Ibid., p. 264.

[6] Rob Bell, Velvet Elvis ( Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2005), p. 147,150

[7] Dan Kimball, The Emerging Church ( Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2003), p. 224.

[8] Bell, p. 165.

[9] Ibid.

[10] Ibid., p. 167.

[11] Ibid., p. 166, 167.

[12] Brian McLaren, The Last Word and the Word after That ( San Francisco: Jossey-Bass, 2005), p. 111.

[13] Bell, p. 41.

[14] Andy Crouch, “The Emergent Mystique,” Christianity Today, November, 2004, p 38.

[15] Bell, p. 42.

[16] McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 86.

[17] Bell, p. 68.

[18] McLaren, The Last Word, p. 111.

[19] McLaren, A New Kind of Christian, p. 158.

[20] D. A. Carson, Becoming Conversant with the Emerging Church ( Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2005), p. 164.

[21] Ibid., p. 172.

[22] McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, pp. 133-134.

[23] McLaren, The Last Word, p. 81.

[24] William J. Webb, Slaves, Women & Homosexuals: Exploring the Hermeneutics of Cultural Analysis ( Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity, 2001), p. 247.

[25] Ibid., p. 25.

[26] McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 193.

[27] Bell, p. 50.

[28] Ibid., p. 164.

[29] Donald Miller, Blue Like Jazz ( Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 2003), p. 206.

[30] Bell, p. 30.

[31] McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 294.


[33] Kimball, p. 188.

[34] Carson, p. 29.

by Gary E. Gilley, Pastor-Teacher
Southern View Chapel - Springfield, IL
©2006 SVC -

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New Paul Proctor article

Hi Everyone: Thanks for all your prayers and I am home in Ohio safe with my wife Donna and four children. We will still carry on with getting free music to the troops as God allows.
I am having to deal with finding a good internet provider since broadband is not available where I live. And with NetZero Im having zero luck staying on the internet but I will post from the local library.

Here is a new Paul Proctor article


By Paul Proctor

July 12, 2006

"A collective gasp arose from the worshippers. Then, claps and cheers," reported Sarah Price Brown in the June 27th issue of Religion News Service.

"Evangelical pastor Rick Warren has been invited to preach this summer to some 15,000 Christians in North Korea, a communist country infamous not only for its nuclear threats but also for its religious persecution.

Warren, author of the bestselling book, "The Purpose-Driven Life," said he would make the trip as part of a nearly 40-day journey to meet with the leaders of 13 foreign countries."

Ah yes, of course; "40 Days," the Purpose Driven lucky bible code number for all godly ventures. I wonder what the number "13" represents?

The article continues with Pastor Rick breaking the news to his infatuated flock a couple of days prior to the story's release:

"'I want to ask you to pray for me,' Warren told about 5,000 worshippers at his Saddleback Church on Sunday (June 25). He said he would be embarking on a 'grueling' tour, meeting with presidents, business leaders and pastors in countries such as Australia, Malaysia, Singapore, Rwanda and South Korea, where he would preach at the world's largest church."

Have you ever wondered why he never brags about preaching in small churches and meeting with unknown people who've never heard of him or his book in out-of-the-way and unimpressive places? Every story he tells about himself always seems to include some person, place or thing, whether exotic, famous, infamous, controversial, sensational or dangerous, to make him somehow look more important, courageous, sacrificial, special, successful or spiritual than everyone else, which in turn teaches his audience, by example, to go and do the same. What a contrast to the humility of Jesus Christ, the Humble Shepherd he claims to follow.

"And he [Jesus] said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God." - Luke 16:15

Last year Rick addressed the Pew Forum's biannual Faith Angle conference on religion, politics and public life about three foundations he established and something he calls "reverse tithing:"

"…my wife and I made five decisions…we set up three different foundations. One is called Equipping the Church, which we use to train pastors in third-world countries. The other is called Acts of Mercy, which we use to help those infected with AIDS. And another one is called The Global PEACE Plan, which I'll share in just a second…The fifth thing we did was become reverse tithers…We give away 90 percent and we live on 10." (Underscore added for emphasis)

In fact, in one televised interview I witnessed, he point-blank stated that the money he received from book sales goes to his foundations. Well, as far I'm concerned, what he does with his money is his business, whether he tithes 10% or 90%; that is until he starts using it to deceive others and exalt himself in the process.

If indeed HIS 90% goes to HIS foundations for HIM to use as HE sees fit, wouldn't this kind of "reverse tithing" actually mean he's giving his millions back to himself to fund his own Purpose Driven programs, agenda, expenses and ego under tax exempt status, rendering the money held on account "for charitable causes" still under HIS control either directly or indirectly?

Why does the story of Ananias and Sapphira come to mind in Acts, Chapter 5?

"For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." - 1st Timothy 6:10

Did Jesus tell the rich young ruler to take his wealth and establish benevolent organizations to help the poor and impress people with his generosity? No; because the rich young ruler was relying on the power of money, rather than the power of God, he needed to get rid of it to get rid of his ego, not just find a clever way of using it to glorify himself under a guise of godliness. Jesus' primary objective for telling him to sell all that he had and give it to the poor was not to see that the poor got financial aid, it was to free the rich young ruler of that which ensnared him. And, whether Warren knows it or not, his highly-acclaimed offerings still pale alongside the poor widow's mites.

So, if Pastor Warren is going to continue to use this "reverse tithing" shtick for the cameras and crowds, he should probably explain it in a little more detail; because as long as the money remains under HIS supervision and direction, it's still HIS money even if he calls it a 90% tithe.

Furthermore, he would do well to revisit the scriptures where Jesus warned about doing "your alms before men, to be seen of them," which includes, not only tithing but good works, as well; because he seems to think the Lord has no objection to him boasting of that which is "highly-esteemed among men;" particularly those things that keep him in the headlines and keep reporters, camera crews and satellite hookups standing by to broadcast poignant segments of his "grueling tours" around the world for all to see?

"Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly." - Matthew 6:1-4

One of the perils of pragmatism is believing that the Risen Lord and the fallen world think and act alike.

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." - Isaiah 55:9

Meanwhile, back at the Saddleback ranch, Warren continues his big announcement:

"And then, he told the crowd, 'I've received another invitation.' Warren said North Korea would allow him to preach in a stadium seating 15,000, but that he could preach in a larger venue if he could fill the seats."

According to the RNS reporter, this is when the gasping and applauding broke out. Church growth gurus, you see, LOVE gaspers and clappers as much as they do large venues and big crowds. They picked up this part of their value system from the folks over in nearby Hollywood; and since they don't yet sell tickets at Saddleback to get a box office tally of their triumphs, they've made THIS their principal measure of success. It means they've made an emotional impact on the world around them, which, in their view, translates into life-changing experiences, great spiritual victories and "revival;" all part of Warren's Global P.E.A.C.E. plan to build "God's Kingdom on Earth as it is in Heaven," something Jesus never commissioned us to do.

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." - 1st John 2:15-17

And isn't it interesting how the criterion for both the communist regime THERE in North Korea and the church growth movement HERE in America are strikingly similar in that preachers should never offend their hosts or audience by proclaiming something biblical that convicts the conscience, challenges the consensus or shames the stalwarts of the secular status quo - just "fill the seats?" If my memory serves me, Jesus often offended, even chastised the very people that invited Him to dinner, many of whom were leaders in their communities. I guess He failed to appreciate the more expedient aspects of effective church growth during His earthly ministry.

"'God's using Rick Warren as a vessel for peace,' said Sue Foley, a photographer for the church.'"

Well, I don't know about Christianity's God using Rick as a "vessel of peace" but it sure looks like North Korea's god might well be...

Think about; what better way to get a "Christian" president and his "Christian" constituency whose "Christian" country you've been threatening with nuclear attack, to at least temporarily "turn the other cheek," (CGM translation: Look the other way) while you spitefully launch a half dozen or more test missiles into the sky, than to cordially invite their most celebrated pastor to come over and preach his "P.E.A.C.E. plan" the following year? Somebody's buying time here friends.

Has it worked? You tell me. When was the last time you heard the White House talk tough with North Korea? The comments have been awfully calm and conciliatory of late from the Oval office considering the unsettling events of recent days; and because the tentative date for Warren's "preaching" isn't until 2007, it means North Korea can keep "testing" missiles without so much as a Purpose Driven peep from America's president. Pretty slick, huh?

Yeah, I would say Warren's being used by Kim Jong II alright; and probably in more ways than one.

In a related Agape Press article, Jody Brown quoted North Korean activist Suzanee Scholte, chairman of the North Korea Freedom Coalition, as saying this about the trip:

"'This is a Satanic regime,' says Scholte, 'and to go in there and believe that you could actually preach freely is an illusion. It won't do anything to help the church. It will only put the true church at risk, and it will be used as a propaganda piece by the Kim Jong Il regime.' And the Coalition leader wonders what Warren will be able to preach. 'Kim Jong Il has set himself up as a god. Is [Rick Warren] going to say, Kim Jong Il is not your god - God is God?' she asks. 'They are raised to believe Kim Jong Il is god and that the God we worship doesn't exist. And so, what is he going to preach?' Scholte says she fears that after the event is over, anyone who is perceived to be a real Christian will be 'rounded up and sent to a political prison camp."

So, this would suggest Satan too has something to gain from Warren's visit to North Korea and might also be using him for his own spiritual purposes there, like skillfully retaining for eternity, all those lost souls who will gather to hear the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ preached in 2007 only to be presented with a politically palatable Purpose Driven pep talk, thanks to the PDL pastor's "savvy message tailoring."

At least that's what Rob Eshman, Editor-in-Chief of The Jewish Journal called it when Pastor Warren recently addressed Jews at the Sinai Temple in Los Angeles:

"Warren managed to speak for the entire evening without once mentioning Jesus - a testament to his savvy message-tailoring."

But I guess as long as their synagogues become Purpose Driven, that's really all that matters, huh? It's OK to reject Jesus Christ as long as they accept Rick Warren.

"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." - Matthew 10:33

Eshman also noted THIS about Warren in his subsequent editorial:

"As I sat listening to him speak at Sinai Temple's Friday Night Live Shabbat services last week, I thought of the only other person I'd met with Warren's eloquence, charisma, and passion - but Bill Clinton carries a certain amount of baggage that Warren doesn't."

How about, same persona, different baggage?

In a July 5th Associated Baptist Press article by Hannah Elliott, Christian radio host and columnist Ingrid Schlueter summed up Warren's upcoming visit to North Korea this way:

"…Warren won't 'call the communist faithful to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ' because he preaches a 'man-centered, counterfeit gospel.'

'Not for a moment do these leaders worry that they will have a Christian revival on their hands by letting Mr. Warren speak,' she said. 'Rick Warren is loved and feted because his message is absent the cross and Christ's call to die. That's why he is popular and politically useful.'"

Elliott added:

"Warren acknowledged his trip could be used by the Korean government for propaganda or further persecution but said it is worth the risks.

'I know they're going to use me, so I'm going to use them,' he said.'"

Well, isn't that courageous? Pastor Warren is ready and willing to sacrifice the health, safety and wellbeing of every Christian in North Korea to plant his Purpose Driven flag on communist soil where everyone EXCEPT the Church of Jesus Christ has something to gain, unless of course you consider intimidation, persecution, imprisonment, suffering, torture and martyrdom to be "gain."

Now, I don't know about Rick using the North Korean government, but he sure seems to have no problem using North Korean Christians; but then again, in the church growth movement, "the end justifies the means;" so I guess we should all just Praise The Lord and pass the body bags, is that it?

And if you think the United States government is going to sit idly by while the President's prominent PDL pal pops in on the "axis of evil" to help them find their purpose beneath the rockets red glare, you need to turn the TV off and get a clue. If things don't work out to his "divine" satisfaction, I'm sure Kim Jong II would have no qualms about sending the good reverend home aboard a Taepodong-2; so, Bush and company had better be VERY seeker-sensitive about how THEY use "The People's Pastor" over there in North Korea.

But I suppose, in the final analysis, when all is said and done, the Lord, in His own Sovereign and mysterious way, will ultimately take this mess called mankind and somehow manage to use us ALL for His glory and purpose - and yes, believe it or not, even Rick Warren and Kim Jong II.

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." - Proverbs 16:4

Related Articles:

1. Rick Warren to Preach in Communist North Korea
2. Myths of the Modern Mega-Church
3. North Korean Activist Objects to Warren Visit
4. Jesus' Man Has a Plan
5. Crazy Kim Jong II of North Korea and Rick Warren Working Together For What Purpose?
6. Baptist Pastor, author Rick Warren invited to speak in North Korea
7. Purpose Driven Pastor To Preach In North Korea

© 2006 Paul Proctor - All Rights Reserved

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Paul Proctor, a rural resident of the Volunteer state and seasoned veteran of the country music industry, retired from showbiz in the late 1990's to dedicate himself to addressing important social issues from a distinctly biblical perspective. As a freelance writer and regular columnist for, he extols the wisdom and truths of scripture through commentary and insight on cultural trends and current events. His articles appear regularly on a variety of news and opinion sites across the internet and in print.


Sunday, July 16, 2006

Mirror, Mirror, Art Thou Blessed?- Part One

"Now we see in a glass darkly"- 1 Corinthians 13:12. We're sure that you're all familiar with Walt Disney's "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs", but do you remember the scene wher the wicked queen glances into the magic mirror saying, "Mirror, Mirror, on the wall, who is the fairest of them all?" She fully expected that mirror to say that "she" was the fairest one of all yet she was in for a big surprise.

Have you ever questioned the value of a mirror? It is my guide as I shave every morning and we also use it to comb our hairm but have you ever taken a spiritual view of yourself in a mirror? How does the glass of Scripture show you the face of your soul? When one glances into the mirror of their soul that kind of sight is known as discernment.

Have you ever sinned before? What happens when we remember that sin and then cast it under the glass of Scripture that reflects upon the face of our soul? If you're honest with yourself that is even an uglier reflection than the wicked queen saw in her mirror. It should trouble those that have a conscience. It drives us to our knees to ask the forgiveness of God. Yet there are some that never reach that point as their souls are hardened to the truth. It cannot penetrate that kind of darkness. And, those kinds of people never turn to the Bible for their problems because the Bible is that mirror that reflects their soul back to them.

Those that are unaffected by their sins have the tendency to relax their attention as they glance into the mirror of Scripture and can easily walk away with no baggage attached to them even though the stain of that sin is still upon their soul.
"What will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?"- Mark 8:36-37. How you answer that question determines how well the glass of Scripture reflects back upon you. More in our next post.

David Norris
Spiritual Pathways Ministries

Wednesday, July 12, 2006

When Benny Hinn Slays in the Spirit, He Really Slays!

"I knew I should have taken a breath mint before I went on!"

"In vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men"- Matthew 15:9. The people that Benny has "supposedly" slain in the spirit are about as awake spiritually as the rest of his congregation. Slaying in the Spirit is not biblical but it is said to be a real pushover!

David Norris
Spiritual Pathways Ministries

Sunday, July 09, 2006

Where is Tim Wirth?

Sorry, Tim! Your computer won't function properly without a phone line and that is why all you people that are waiting for Tim Wirth to come back to you may have to wait a tad longer. He is in Ohio safe and sound but we tried calling him tonight and his phone is not yet connected. Remember, he's used to that fast California service but in Ohio? Well????

David Norris
Spiritual Pathways Ministries

Saturday, July 08, 2006

The Meaning of Worship by William Temple

To worship is to quicken the conscience by the holiness of God, To Feed the mind with the truth of God, To purge the imagination with the beauty of God, To open the heart to the love of God, To devote the will to the purpose of God.

Is that your meaning of worship? As you come together to worship the Lord this Sunday, focus on that meaning and you will have a more perfect worship day in honoring the Lord.
"Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness"- 1 Chronicles 16:29.

David Norris
Spiritual Pathways Ministries

Thursday, July 06, 2006

Faith in Times of Crisis

How should we react in times of crisis? The prayer of Habakkuk 3:17-19 gives one the proper perspective in these times. We hope that when these times hit you that you return to it again and again.

"Though the fig tree may not blossom, nor fruit be on the vines; Though the labor of the olive may fail, and the fields yiled no food; Though the flock be cut off from the fold, and there be no herd in the stalls, YET I will rejoice in the Lord. I will joy in the God of my salvation. The Lord God is my strength".

Don't let circumstances, whatever they may be, dictate your attitude. "In everything (not for everything) give thanks, for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you"- 1 Thessalonians 5:18.

David Norris
Spiritual Pathways Ministries

Saturday, July 01, 2006

The Confusing Gospel of Bill Hybels

A comment on Part Four of my series on Gourds prompted this response. Bill Hybels is a product of Dr. Robert Schuller who canvassed his neighborhood to determine what people wanted to hear preached instead of following the lead of the Holy Spirit to give them what they NEEDED to hear preached. Hybels appeals to those of an itching ear mentality. "The time will come (and has) when they will not endure sound doctrine, BUT ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN DESIRES, because they have itching ears, THEY WILL HEAP UP FOR THEMSELVES TEACHERS, and they (the teachers) will turn their ears away from the truth and be turned aside to fables"- 2 Timothy 4:3-4. One of those myths is seeker sensitive preaching.

Seeker sensitive churches, like Billy Hybels church, are similar to whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outside but inside they are full of hypocrisy (Matthew 23:27-28). Hybels shows expository preaching, that is verse by verse, out the back door and brings in common or felt need sermons. In effect, Hybels repackages his messages to appeal to his listeners ears, those itching ears that demand sermons according to their own desires. They don't want to hear sermons on hell, judgment, and holiness so instead they receive a watered down gospel. Instead of messages of self-denial that congregation gets self-esteem.

Jesus knew well of that concept.
"When He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did, but Jesus did not commit Himself to them"- John 2:23-24. Those people were there for the Entertainment Value of Christ, which Hybels church offers abundantly. Jesus said, "Sanctify (set them apart) by Your truth. Your word is truth"- John 17:17, yet Hybels preaches what his congregation "wants" to hear. Unbelievers don't want the truth of the gospel, they want entertainment which Hybels provides them.

Paul did say that he wished that everyone spoke the same thing but if you compare Hybels preaching to John MacArthur or even the Simply Agape Project Discernment Ministry you will discern a vast difference. The problem is that Hybels congegation cannot discern those things because their preacher keeps them in the elementary principles of the gospel and they never get to the meat of the word so that they might discern deeper things (Hebrews 5:12-14). "Note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned and avoid them, for those who are such do not serve our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple"- Romans 16:17-18. Hybels does look good on the outside, but as for the inside...?

David Norris
Spiritual Pathways Ministries

Move to Ohio went great

Hi all: Thanks to David Norris for carrying the ball while I was in transit to Ohio. I hope Dave will continue to write articles here. The drive went great and we are settling in to our new home. Thanks to all for your prayers.

When I went to moderate comments I saw one comment that stated I should say why I really left First Baptist Church in Modesto.

I want to be very clear on this because there are many good people who attend there.
The reason I left was because the leaders are promoting Emergent Church through the youth pastor Scott Ramsey.
I went and observed the rituals Scott was introducing to the children there at the junior high level and its nothing short of rehashed New Age rituals.
Then the leadership that I met with were not upfront or honest with me.
Thats why I left.
I did not publish the comment asking me to say why I really left First B because I do not publish comments that do not have a name attached.
But that is why I left First B in Modesto.
If you go to there website you can see that Scott Ramsey continues to promote Emergent Church to the junior high group there.

But enough said about that.
I will be posting in about 1 week after I am settled in there in lots to talk about.
Sorry we didnt stop in for a coffee Dave but we hit Indi at a odd time to do that.
Thanks again for all your posting and articles.

My Zimbio
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