Followers of Ken and Gloria Copeland need to read this.

This was a comment left on a Ken Copeland article I posted. I was so touched by the comment I decided to post it in article form for everyone to read.

Everyone who follows Ken and Gloria as well as other false teachers and motivational speakers such as TD Jakes, Paula White, Creflo Dollar or occultist numeroligist Steve Munsey need to read this before sending their leaders financial aid.
Tim


Kenneth and Gloria Copeland,

Before knowledge of, KCM, BVOV, GLORIA’S HEALING SCHOOL, and EMIC, our lives were simple, and complete. Before BVOV, faith had no mathematical values, you was never told you had to little, or to much. Before BVOV, sickness was not blamed on lack of faith, nor finances. Before BVOV, rewording, or falsifying bible verses, well, before our knowledge of prosperity gospel (materialistic Christian belief: the doctrine taught in some Christian groups that God will grant wishes to the faithful, especially those wishes involving material wealth .Encarta ® World English Dictionary), this act was unheard of, tithes received during collection were used for the upkeep of our church, parsonage, cemetery, and exedra, the exedra was legit. Before BVOV, I had a mother, faith, finances, piece, and a belief in God I never questioned for there was no reason to. My personal thanks goes out to both you and Gloria, prosperity gospel truly is a life changing experience!
The first time I tried to contact (BVOV) was back in 2004, a few months after the death of my mother (Bonnie Parker) who was a long time partner of your ministry, since 1995 to be exact. That’s a lot of faithful years is it not. And now what began as a simple request for answers over two years ago, is now national news. Though I made many efforts to contact you, none of which were successful. (Mail, Email, , Phone, and even visiting Eagle Mountain Church personally) We were in Dallas for the filming of a documentary (Suffer the Children sufferthechildren.com)which was being funded, and produced by director Trever Glass. The film was to show, from the victims point of view, the tragic abuse, suffering , and fraudulent behaviors preformed by certain mega church ministers, mainly focusing on the prosperity gospel ministers. I was asked if I would like to visit EMIC, and take a tour of the massive facilities. Nervously I said yes. Was I finally going to be given the chance of speaking with either of you? With a copy of the original letter, and pictures of mom before, and after BVOV, tucked safely in our backpack we began the tour that would leave me with even more questions than answers. The tour guide was very nice, and very informative. She had not a clue that with every gloating word she spoke, I was fighting back the tears they were bringing. Were the trophies you have proudly displayed at EMIC, acquired on these trips? Did you pay to have them stuffed, or did the church catch that bill for you? There I was standing in the maculate office, (by the way, how much did that high dollar office furniture set you or the ministry back), of the very people I felt were most responsible for my mothers death. No you didn’t put a gun to her head, but your guidance did prove to seal her fate. I do highly recommend this tour to all your partners that contribute to this lifestyle you both so take advantage of. Nor you or Gloria were present the day we dropped by, but I left the letter, and photos with an employee of EMIC. John Copeland called me a few day’s after we toured EMIC, saying how sad I appeared in the video tapes that were recording our every move during our tour.. I was not sure what to say, a Copeland was on the other end, not the one I was hopping for but a Copeland. There was no way to explain to him the hurt I felt inside that not he but his parents created. The call was short, I basically said no comment, for their were no words to express the feelings I had at that moment! Perhaps the Copelands, Kenneth and Gloria, believed my accusations are unprecedented.. By giving me the chance of showing you in moms written proof I will be happy to reveal you the source of my accusations. Never less, no response lead me to believe neither of you have any remorse for their actions, and that you both must believe they had done no wrong. Personally, I could not live with myself after it was brought to my attention that the mere words coming from my mouth, could indeed cause someone to loose their life. Maybe, hopefully, someday sooner than latter, the dangers related to prosperity gospel will become clear to you both, until then God help us all.
Your problem now is, no longer am I the only one publicly asking for answers, you now have the whole United States of America awaiting to see how this Senate investigation unfolds. In February of this year WFAA News in Dallas broadcasted the findings of an investigation (by Brett Shipp) regarding the misuse of the ministry’s jet. I’m sorry but it is really hard to comprehend you and your wife going on vacation in a jet my mother paid for with her life. Just incase you missed the news broadcast, that was one comment I voiced loud and clear. After that news broadcast aired, I began relying on WWW.WFAA.COM for any new developments, or some kind of comment from anyone at BVOV, EMIC, or either of you personally. The broadcast received the same response that I had come to know all to well over the years, no response, from either of you. Being in the public eye I’m sure has it’s advantages and also disadvantages. You are looked up to by millions of people. It never crossed your minds that a tragedy such as my mom’s was a possibility? You take on a huge responsibility when you get in front of a camera, step onto a stage, and in the recordings of your tapes and cd’s, to each and every one who are watching and listening. Your words can, will , and have, become fatal, the question now is not will it happen again, but when, if your words go unchanged someone’s else’s death is inevitable. As for my family the damage is irreversible. The probe into your finances is long overdue. As for the ones already passed on, the bankrupt, the homeless, and the devastated lives your ministry has destroyed over the years, but it’s better late than never!! I’ve been told by some that my mothers story, and my persistence for the truth, played a part in the investigations into your finances. If so my objective is done. Showing the public the possible consequences in becoming involved with the prosperity gospel was my main objective!!!! As well as taking the tour of your ministries assets, your partners need to read for themselves, (anyone sending money to your ministry) the requests from the Senate related to your finances. I believe they also will have a few questions for you. Oh and the comment you made when caught off guard by the media, WFAA news, (you may view this on there web site), and are questioned about the misuse of the ministry’s jet, your comment was ”None of Your Business”, do either of you have the courage to look me in the eyes and say that to me? The cost we paid for that jet can never be repaid. Expenses that accrued during and after moms illness, left us with no choice but to take out a loan on our house, which was paid in full at the beginning of 2004. This was all to much for us to handle, we have struggled to make the note the last few years, but we can’t last much longer. So we are basically still paying for that jet, and the joyrides both of you take on it. When mom gave her life for your ministry, and now possibly our home will be lost also, I believe that gave us a right to know where the money goes. We did request a accounting of all mom’s contributions, several times, which I have enclosed in this letter, but yet again no response was given. Are either of you, seeing the pattern here? God knows we all, even both of you, make mistakes in life. The difference between both of you and us is plane as day, we know wrong from right! The good hearted, and the sincere, try to make amends for their mistakes, and are most likely forgiven, on earth and in heaven. It’s never to late to start this process. I on the other hand, will never be able to forgive, nor forget. We never asked to become involved with either of you, or your false, and dangerous ministry! Unwillingly, and unfortunately our lives crossed paths with the death of my mother, I can’t change that, but I wish I could!
Kristy Beach

Have there been any inquiries into how many deaths are related to the Prosperity Gospel?

Ken Copeland article

This is for the benefit of one of Ken Copelands followers who has been commenting on another post. Ken Copelands false teaching is well documented on many articles on the web. The false teaching comes from Kens and Glorias own mouth and again does not add up to scripture. This article is just one among many. I hope this article opens up the eyes of the commenter who follows Kens unbiblical distortion of scripture.
Tim


Kenneth Copeland's prophesy:

"Jesus is no longer the Only Begotten son"

and his Latter Rain teaching

Copeland has been known to shock his listeners with his supposed prophecies from God, such as: “Dont be disturbed when people accuse you of thinking you are God...They crucified me for saying that I was God. But I didn't claim I was God; I just claimed I walked with Him and that He was in me” (prophecy from Take Time to Pray article Believer's Voice of Victory,1987, p.9 )

In the above prophecy, Kenneth Copeland accomplished at least two things: 1) he denied the deity of Jesus Christ and 2) he promoted doctrines of demons (1 Timothy 4:1).

Kenneth Copeland was a guest on Benny Hinn’s January 28, 2004 broadcast This is Your Day telecast. Hinn says the lord has a word for you today. Copeland thanks Hinn for continuing in the healing ministry. Benny Hinn asked Kenneth Copeland what he sees happening in 2004. In turn, Copeland responds by reading his prophecy, to which Hinn says, “Amen“: “Right now the healing ministry of Jesus is coming into a place that no human beings has seen before. And it, we’ all going to be glad we stayed where he put us because this is our time” (Benny Hinn- Amen). (This is a Prophecy delivered by Kenneth Copeland at Eagle Mountain International Church December 31, 2000) Complete prophecy at http://kcm.org/studycenter/prophecies/2004_yearoffullness.php

Copeland continues: “The lord began talking to me about fullness of ministry and fullness of his callings and so forth oh 25 years go, but then in late November and all the way up to new years eve, and I had a visitation of the Lord new years eve afternoon, he began to talk to me about this year, and if you, you permit me I’ll read you what he said to me, Hinn responds please:

“ the year of 2004 will be known as the year of fullness. By the close of 2004, all callings will come to fullness. Apostles ministry, prophets ministry, evangelist ministry, pastoral ministries and teaching ministries that will obey me will come into full manifestation. The gifts of the spirit will be manifested in fulness as they were when Jesus was on the earth.” (Copeland says, “We’ve not seen that, we've seen little pieces of it but not like this”)... “Families will come into their called places and know the fullness of joy on earth as it is in heaven.”

If this is true, who needs heaven? Jesus said the very opposite for the last days, and spoke of perilous times, apostasy, the love of many growing cold, and itching ears that do not want to hear the truth but what they want to hear. The only time we will see this fullness is in the Millennium, but first comes the Great tribulation.

So according to God speaking to Copeland The gifts of the spirit will be manifested in fulness as they were when Jesus was on the earth. We will see all healings, all the gifts will be working at their height beyond what we saw with the apostles by those ministries like Copeland's. Blind eyes, legs growing out, resurrections taking place, multiplication of food for thousands to be fed by what would feed only a few is what people saw when Jesus was on earth; this he says will ALL take place in 2004.

It seems these prophets receive revelations on cue at the years end, and are regularly told by Jesus what’s in store next year. This time, Copeland is being told what the Latter Rain (ie. Bill Hamon and others in the Prophetic movement) has been saying for some time now. No, we have not seen this and the Bible never says we will see this. Not even the apostles repeated what Jesus did in all his miracles, but that is only what the Bible says, we are beyond that now. Now we are into new direct words dictated by men like Copeland that give false hope and mislead many under the guise of prophecy.

Copeland continues “All forms of prosperity, to excel, to go to the high places in God, will come into fullness of manifestation spirit, soul and body, health, wealth, assets and influence to the glory of God the Father. (Hinn responds Amen.)

Follow My leading. Listen to Me. Listen to My Spirit. Things are changing. Things that now look impossible and unchangeable will suddenly turn around. To the world for no apparent reason. But you will know the reasons, for your knowing what I am doing will increase and also come to fullness.

Many who have never head the voice of My Spirit will be hearing and following fully by the end of 2004.”

To that Benny Hinn says, “dear God.”(audience claps)

“Now let me ask the Lord something” Copeland said “I’m going to need his permission to read this …(Copeland pauses, as if God gives him an immediate answer he says, all right acknowledging God's permission)
“I have taken over the politics and the politicians. (Copeland says, he’s talking about all over the world) “Listen to My voice. Vote the way I say in all elections.”

Has God taken over politics? Which party? How did God do this all of a sudden? The only change taking place is in the minds of those who are NOT living in reality.

“One thing he stopped me and said to me then, He said “I’m telling you to vote in all elections and I’m telling you in all elections you vote the way I tell you to vote. And another thing was your ballot is your seed a ballot is your, its not just a vote, your ballot is your seed to do well under any administration, I don’t care what they do. If you vote with God and do what he says your gonna come out well even if the rest of them go down the drain. And that’s your seed.”

Your ballot is not just a vote it is your seed? Where’s that mentioned in the Bible? This is beyond ridiculous. Remember, Copeland claims to have received a prophecy from God. If politics and the politicians are now in control of God then why would they go down the drain? How can your ballot do well under any administration no matter what they do? Does the way we vote now have us receive a blessing from God?

“This is the time you've been waiting for, hoping for, and believing for. You will know Me ways that up to now you've never heard of before. Stay close to Me. Keep yourself in love. Obey My every command. Stay in My Word continually. Keep yourself and your prayer life fresh daily. Live by faith. 2004 will be the fullest year of your life. 2005 is the year of overflow. How much overflow depends on how much you sow towards it in 2004.”

So then God blesses us now according to our work of sowing? this sounds more like karma, what you give in 2004 will pay its dividends in 2005. Actually, the new covenant is operated by grace, Christ’s work and His unmerited favor toward his children. These are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SYSTEMS presented. The Bible has nothing to say about sowing one year will be seen the next. The Bible speaks more of sowing to the flesh or the Spirit, which is not the kind of sowing (money or voting etc.) that Copeland is talking about. (See Galatians 6:7-9) It is about receiving rewards afterwards.

“So All the things that I have studied over the last years since I first started hearing this, I, I heard brother Hagin mention it uh back in the 70’s...Fulness, We’ve never seen the gifts of the spirit in their fullness. Everything that God can do, we never seen that”... “God has made a decision, now once he makes a decision Benny, remember he's a sovereign God. But when he makes a sovereign decision he never changes and that decision then in a way really becomes his own boundaries. If he has decided to do it a certain way, he has made a sovereign decision that he will not and therefore he cannot express himself in fullness in the earth without us.”

Where does the Bible ever say such a thing? This is certainly founded upon the Latter Rain teachings, it is a modified version of the Manifest Sons of God doctrine. Are we going to see EVERYTHING God can do?

“ But then the lord referred me to the book of Ephesians, there’s a prayer in the first chapter, there’s a prayer in the third chapter and then the results of those prayers are outlined in the fourth, fifth and sixth chapter.

We start with the prayer in the first chapter 16th verse “Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, The anointed one, Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what is the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints... what is the exceeding greatness of his power toward who believe, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead.” What is the exceeding greatness toward us who believe? And he raised him from the dead and placed him at his own right hand in the heavenly places. Far above all principalities, all power, all might all dominion... Appointed him, placed him as head over his body gave Him to be head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills or fulfills all things, Jesus is the filler upper he is the fullness of the father but not without us because he’s only the head.”

What is Copeland saying? The Bible says before the church was made (indwelled with the Spirit) that He, Jesus, was the fullness of God by Himself. Col 1:19 “For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell” Col. 2:9 “For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.” Notice the word ALL, meaning all that makes God who He is, every attribute and characteristic, the complete nature is found in Christ Jesus in bodily form (only) when He became man. Christ does not need the church body to have this fullness, as if only the head is in need of something .This is serious error but it only gets worse. As Copeland continues, he denies Christ having the fullness alone and other core teachings:

Copeland pauses and says I thought how can that be to Hinn and the audience (relating back to the 70's when he first heard this message) But then, “Well let’s stop and lets track some things for a moment. God created Adam and Adam was the fullness of God, he was not a little example of God he was the likeness of God, and God put his own hands on him and crowned him with his gory. And put his power inside him to bless the entire earth. He said I bless you. YOU multiply you bless the earth. Now the earth that came upon the earth did not come from heaven it came out of Adam. (Hinn is impressed) “There was enough spiritual power and capacity to curse this whole planet. With death, the devil didn’t have that kind of power. But this man like God did. But when he disconnected from God he connected with Satan and that’s where Satan got his power, he got it out of Adam. Now, then comes Adam the second, Jesus, is he the fullness of God, is he the full expression of God himself, (Hinn says amen he is) but then comes the new creation created in Christ Jesus your and my and your recreate human spirit. Recreated in the very likeness of the one who went before us. And suffered and died and raised again…And his spirit went through torture and torment .The firstborn from the dead, he’s no longer called the only begotten son of God.” No, no, he’s called the firstborn son of God, the first begotten of many brethren and we are the fullness of him …

This is false, but Copeland always twist the Scripture ever so slightly to make his own unique point, which happens to be a interpretation completely outside the Scripture. Satan did not get his power transferred out of Adam. God did not put his own hands on Adam. The Scriptures are void of this teaching.

Copeland is saying that Jesus is just like Adam. Think this through, this means either Adam was equally God or that Jesus was not God. But Copeland is saying Adam was God and he stated this position many times:

“if you stood Adam upside God they look just exactly alike…Now here's Adam in the image of God, and in the likeness of God. All of God's attributes, all of God's authority, all of God's faith, all of God's ability, was invested in that man." (The Authority of the Believer IV, Tape #01-0304)

"Adam was just as much the Son of God as Jesus, Jesus just as much the Son of God as Adam. " (Kenneth Copeland, Believer's Voice of Victory, January 29, 2001 [GOD TV]

“Adam was as much like God as you can get, just the same as Jesus when he came to earth, he said if you have seen me you have seen the father. He wasn’t a lot like God he’s God manifested in the flesh, I want you to know something Adam in the Garden of Eden was God manifested in the flesh”“(Kenneth Copeland, Following the Faith of Abraham I (Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1989), tape #01-3001, side 1)

According to Copeland this means that Adam, who was God, sinned. Jesus, the second Adam, was God, was just like Adam and did not sin.

Adam was not the fullness of God no creature can be this. Jesus is God, He is the only human being God came in the flesh: 1 Tim.3:16 “God was manifested in the flesh,” ONLY ONCE, in Jesus. To say God came in the flesh (incarnate) in any another creature (like Adam) is denying that Christ was the only God come in the flesh (1 John 4:2). This is not God’s Spirit that is prophesying through Copeland. Besides being unbiblical, it’s not even logical. Adam did not pre-exist as an eternal being as the Son of God did before He came to earth. This denies the uniqueness of Jesus being the only begotten Son. If Copeland's teachings were true, then Jesus is the second only begotten and we are third, fourth, fifth ad infinitum.

Copeland also states, “he’s not longer called the only begotten son of God.” If we listen to Copeland, then the apostle John is wrong when he, led by the Spirit, wrote the eternal word of God…

I Jn. 4:15 “Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.”

I Jn. 5:5 “Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?”

I Jn. 5:12 “He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.”

I Jn. 5:13 “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.”

Then we no longer need this confession! We should believe just as the Scripture states: “Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession” (Hebrews 4:14).

John's teaching that he is the Son of God MEANS HE is the ONLY begotten Son of God. Unique, one of a kind, no other like him.

Is Jesus no longer called the Only begotten Son of God?

Jesus is the only begotten because he is a Son by his eternal nature, being God. The Son is the same nature as the Father, which is a position occupied by no other is. We are sons by adoption and are given the divine nature. Yet Copeland makes no distinctions. There are two Greek words that are used for “Son.” Those who have experienced the new birth are sons of God by an adoption (Jn.1:12). The Greek word is teknon ( Rom.8:14-15, 19:23; Gal. 4:5, Eph.1:5). We find that this word for “Son” is never used for Jesus. Instead the Greek word huios is used. This word is exclusively applied to Jesus as the Son, which refers to his position of nature, as the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. Copeland is promoting the Manifest Sons of God doctrine of the Latter Rain heresy. This is nothing new. Copeland has been teaching these heresies for years.

Even John, the last apostle to write New Testament Scripture, states, “God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him” (I Jn. 4:9). He doesn’t think he is no longer called this. So exactly when did this happen?

John 3:18: "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

We are told to believe on the name of only begotten Son of God to be saved. Furthermore, when did Jesus stop being the Son of God? After his resurrection?

After the resurrection Paul preached Christ in the synagogues saying, “He is the Son of God” (Acts 9:20). So when did He stop being the Son of God?

John disproves this also: Rev. 2:18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, 'These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass” Jesus is still the Son of God (only begotten) and always will be.

In referring to the eternal Son, A.H. Strong wrote “That Sonship of Christ is eternal, is intimated in Psalm 2:7 “This day I have begotten thee” is most naturally interpreted as the declaration of an eternal fact in the divine nature.” Notice what he says next that is most important. “Neither the incarnation, the baptism, the transfiguration, nor the resurrection marks the beginning of Christ’s Sonship, or constitutes him Son of God. These are but recognitions of manifestations of a preexisting Sonship, inseparable from his Godhood.” “This sonship is unique- not predictable of, or shared with, any creature. The Scriptures intimate, not only an ETRENAL GENERATION OF THE SON, but an eternal procession of the Spirit.” (Systematic Theology p.304)

In other words he always was God only begotten Son, past -present- and future.

This certainly is not the first time Copeland has stated this, though his followers may have missed it, he has been saying this teaching for over 24 years. “Jesus is no longer the only begotten Son of God....” (Copeland: “Now Are We in Christ Jesus”, p.24, Kenneth Copeland Publications, Texas. 1980)

On Hinn's telecast Copeland says he’s not longer called the only begotten son of God.” No, no, he’s called the firstborn son of God, the first begotten of many brethren and we are the fullness of him”

Copeland is making up terms that do not exist--except, through Copeland's faulty revelation knowledge. He is not called the firstborn son of God anywhere in Scripture as Copeland claims, but the firstborn son. There is a difference because this accentuates his humanity.

Matthew 1:25 “…and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.” Luke 2:7 “And she brought forth her firstborn Son.” NOT firstborn son of God because the phrase Son of God refers to his deity.

The only Scripture that comes close to this is “that He might be the firstborn among many brethren” (Romans 8:29). That He, Jesus was raised to eternal life bodily first, then others will follow.

Jesus is called “the firstborn from the dead” (Col. 1:18). “But when He again brings the firstborn into the world” (Heb. 1:6). “And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead” (Rev. 1:5).

The Greek word for firstborn is prototokos, which means first in rank, a heir, to have preeminence in position, the first to bring forth. It is not about His origin. The other Greek word for created is protoktisis, which is not used for Christ, but used for created things.

“He is not called the firstborn Son of God” at all, anywhere! And I challenge anyone to find this in Scripture. Copeland is using the method of diaprax, to convince the church into another doctrine, he wants us to believe that we are just like Jesus (as Sons) and Jesus was only the first and God is soon to have on earth numerous Christ’s just like Jesus.

This is rank heresy, and it needs to be recognized for what it is. Copeland has twisted the Scripture and has denied Jesus is still the only begotten Son, unique among all men as the ONLY God/man. This is Manifested Sons of God teaching straight out of the Latter Rain heresy and perpetuated by so many others today. Hinn accepts it. Copeland teaches it, and so do many others.

And it is very similar to other statements that are non Christian, occultists. “It is far more important that men should strive to become Christ’s than that they should believe that Jesus was Christ” (Mystic Masonry, by J. D. Buck, p. 62).

If this isn’t enough. Copeland further states in Ephesians “Now go over to the third chapter here’s the 2nd prayer beginning with the 14th verse well I really can’t …let me read the verse in the 2nd chapter first, you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sin, now the same action when you got born again when your human spirit was recreated in Christ Jesus it was exactly the same work that the holy ghost did on Jesus when he raised him from the dead. Not one small bit less but exactly the same.”

This is false! Jesus’ spirit was not dead in sin needing to be reborn, but alive and sinless; His spirit was NOT recreated. Herein is the false teaching of the “born again” Jesus after the cross that Copeland has upheld for so many years. And Hinn agrees with it. Besides, Jesus raised from the dead also means he cannot die anymore, but we can.

This teaching can very subtle unless one pays attention they will not be aware of the turnaround he is doing to the Scripture

Why should anyone believe what Copeland says will come to pass? This fails in two ways; first and most importantly from the Bible. Second he’s been wrong many times before.

One of the more outrageous and obvious times was spoken at Word of Life Christian Center Honolulu Hawaii when he addressed Islam: “But There are going to be multiplied millions upon millions there’s going to be close to a billion people that have been trapped in that religion, that over the next few months are gonna come into the kingdom of God. That’s gonna happen, you watch and see what I’m telling you (cheering)” (Word of Life Christian Center Honolulu Hawaii, dedication service, evening service, December 2, 2001.)

Three years later, more than a few months have passed. But Copeland's followers are still cheering, as Copeland is about to return again.

We are reminded of what Paul said, "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" (2 Thessalonians 2:11). The deception grows worse on a daily basis.

Keep in mind that in the past, Copeland also said, “By the end of June you will begin to hear of super-miracles, mega-moves of God that startle human minds and thinking… And before the end of the summer it's going to be an absolute outpouring of the glory of God. There will be manifestations of the Holy Ghost suddenly appear on streets and in stores and in churches and different places around the world” (Prophecy delivered by Kenneth Copeland to the Body of Christ at the Helena, MT Victory Campaign on May 10, 2002 ) [This has also been repeated by Rod Parsley and Cindy Jacobs etc.)

False teaching and false prophecy never matter to those not walking in the truth.

Hinn concludes by saying “What Kenneth Copeland is saying is straight from heaven.” Is it??? We cannot afford to overlook what these men are teaching. The church is in desperate need to recognize what these teachings are - FALSE. And we need to speak up about where these men are leading the church, because it is certainly away from the revelation of the apostles, not in it.

Copeland's teachings are not “from heaven,” as Benny Hinn maintains. They are whole lot more south.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction" (2 Peter 2:1).

To test preachers and their message carefully by God's Word is not a matter of divisiveness, but wisdom and obedience to the word. It is holding to the unity of the faith and pursuing love. I can only hope more people will do so (1 Thessalonians 5:21).


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“In the name of” Interfaith, liberalism and Multiculturalism- be united

From my friend and brother in the Lord Mike Oppenheimer from Let Us Reason ministries a website well worth visiting. Tim

“In the name of” Interfaith, liberalism and Multiculturalism- be united”
(this issue: Terrorism, Earth news, Lineage of false teachers, the Secret)

What we are witnessing:
1. The world continues to rush toward a major conflict in the Middle East that will lead to a change in government[s] and bring about more war.
2. There is a paradigm shift going on in the minds of Americans and others on Islam and its threat.
3. The church seems to be following it in step with all the talking points of the liberals.
4. The differences are shrinking between the liberals in politics and the liberal movement that is growing in the church.


The war on terrorism is not just fought on the Battlefields of Iraq or Afghanistan but in America, Britain, Canada, Australia etc. this war is fought by propaganda, by advertising, both with the intent of convincing people of our mutual friendships, likes and dislikes.

Maybe you thought that there was nothing significant going on with Islam the last few months. But it is what you don't hear in the media that is as important as what you do.

Islam is gaining ground in the area of being victimized each day we sit by and do not challenge their statements openly. It has become a war of words to win the hearts and minds of people. The goal for us is to accept Islam, for in the end they will be victorious (so they think).

For example-The French press reports “Empire State Building to go green for Muslim holiday” New York's Empire State Building is to be lit up green to honor of the Muslim holiday of Eid, marking the end of Ramadan. The city's tallest skyscraper will remain green until Sunday.

“This is the first time that the Empire State Building will be illuminated for Eid, and the lighting will become an annual event in the same tradition of the yearly lightings for Christmas and Hannukah,” (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071010191023.zonyv389&show_article=1)

I turned red when I heard this, how can they do this? It looks like we finally have the revival that all the false prophets and spiritual warfare pray warriors have been praying for. Just like in England, more Mosques were built than churches since the Toronto curse went through their nation. Now it is our turn for conversion. Of course I'm being facetious but many (may) take this shift to tolerance and multiculturalism as the way to peace.

Iran is goading the only democratic country (in the middle east) to fight, they want Israel to strike first, this way they can use it to unite the Muslim world against her and western civilization. It would draw moderates into the scene converting them to radicals to fight for their religion everywhere. The intent of the Islamic Jihadists is to pressure the moderates to join their ranks or they will be considered targets also.

The Taliban was implementing Sharia law in Afghanistan- An Islamic government does not recognize other governments, this is why the Muslims now in England want to overthrow the government, they are rouge (rogue) dominionists when it comes to freedom. In Sharia law, a woman speaking to a man who is not her husband can be stoned.

The following is an excerpt from The Sunday Times, London, September 16, 2007 “Christian Converts Risk Muslim Attack”: “One of Britain's most senior bishops has warned that a sustained campaign by Muslim extremists to intimidate and attack converts to Christianity risks ending in a murder.. ... The Barnabas Fund has uncovered widespread abuse against new converts, from being verbally abused and spat at to being assaulted by gangs of men on the street and left for dead. In some cases it believes that Women converts were abducted to Pakistan.”

We have Muslims who openly make all kinds of threats against America. One said openly, if you don't give us what we want we will burn the country down. Isn't that called hate speech? Not according to the liberal media, it is only hate speech when it is towards the Muslim.

It's bad enough that we must allow a president of a terrorist regime to land on American soil and have free speech that he does not allow in his country. But to say the words about his messiah dictator and promise destruction from the UN platform tells us more about his future actions than we could imagine. The president of Iran spoke of the Mahdi in his opening and closing of his speech at the UN. The president of Iran said previously in three years the Mahdi would be here; that was two years ago…
Ahmadinejad on the UN platform preached to the world his vision of a world without Israel, in which America and Europe would be freed of what he called 'Zionist oppression'. Ending his verbal Minegery on what he described as the injustices and oppressions practiced by the “big powers” since World War II, he said that the ungodly era of lewdness and violence was coming to a close and that “the age of monotheism has commenced.” The world is “nearing the sunset of the time of empires,” he claimed, and urged the dominant world powers to eschew their “obedience to Satan” and “submit to the will of god.” If they did so, “they will be saved.” If not, “calamities will befall them.”


“But whether or not these powers chose to reform themselves, he continued, the day was fast approaching when “occupied lands will be freed. Palestine and Iraq will be liberated from the domination of the occupiers.” And the people of America and Europe would be liberated from Zionist oppression. “This is the promise of god,” he said. “Therefore it will be fulfilled.”


Ahmadinejad has seen the vacancy of Saddam and taken the horse by its reigns. Iraq is very important in this conflict. The Mahdi is the influence for Iran's future (and all of Islam) according to Ahmadinejab. The Mahdi is supposed to appear in Mecca first then Medina and then goes to Kafue, Iraq. Of course he does go to Jerusalem to destroy the churches, synagogues, Christians and the Jews and participates in Muslim worship at the Al Asqa mosque.


Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was a relatively obscure figure in Iranian politics until he was elected in 2005. Ahmadinejad didn't rise to power because of his intellect or statesmanship, he was specifically picked for a reason; Time Magazine called him “belligerent, naive, at once a fundamentalist and nationalist, and a dark genius at mobilizing Iranian public opinion.” That would be the good half-for he is sent to convince America and the nations to fall in line with Islam. And the god he speaks of is Allah, who is not the God of the Bible but a god of forces. One only needs to hear his speech to understand his god. “There is no way for the salvation of mankind but the rule of Islam over mankind.”

Ahmadinejad was invited to speak at Columbia University of which the president of the school Lee Bollinger gave him his own medicine for nearly a half hour. My hats off to him for saying what most politicians will not. The highlights were his questioning who was truly involved” in the September 11, 2001 attack (no not Muslims) and “In Iran, we don't have homosexuals, like in your country.” There were times the audience applauded him and other times booed him. What is amazing is that we heard no protest from the Homosexual community, which raises their voice on any injustice spoken of them. Why would homosexuals side with the Muslims when their Sharia law tells them to behead them? Because they are both in rebellion to God and there is no logic to be found in these matters. While he convinced people of Iran's openness, he forgot to tell them that conversion in Iran results in death.
While America is openly being threatened by Iran (they continually chant-death to Israel- death to America) we open up our Pentagon (that was attacked on 9/11) to observe Muslim holy month of Ramadan. Here are excerpts from an article-

“Navy imam Chaplain Abuhena M. Saifulislam lifted his voice to God as he called to prayer more than 100 Department of Defense employees Monday at a celebration of Ramadan at the Pentagon.

“God is most great,” sang the lieutenant commander and Islamic leader, in Arabic, .
Uniformed military personnel, civilians and family members faced Mecca and knelt on adorned prayer rugs chanting their prayers in quiet invocation to Allah.
As the Pentagon celebrated Ramadan, the White House is in preparations for an iftar feast tomorrow, said Lt. Cmdr. Saifulislam, who will be participating at the White House events.

“President and Mrs. Bush host an iftar dinner every year because they want people around the world to know how much they respect Islam and the many Muslims living in the U.S. who are free to worship as they want, and are an integral part of our society,” said Gordon Johndroe, spokesman for the White House National Security Council.

“We live in a great nation,” said master of ceremonies Air Force Lt. Col. Timothy Oldenburg, a Muslim. “Yes,it is our First Amendment right do that - to practice our religion the way we feel, to worship God and to come to the Pentagon and celebrate Ramadan.”
The first Muslim U.S. congressman - Rep. Keith Ellison, Minnesota Democrat - also attended the iftar, along with Imam Sheik Rashid Lamptey, executive director of the Muslim Association of Virginia. Sheik Lamptey also served as the deputy imam of the All Dulles Area Muslim Society in Virginia.

(Pentagon observes Muslim holy month By Sara A. Carter - http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071003/NATION/110030089/1002)



When gatherings like these take place it depicts a shift in peoples positions, they become liberal minded and are willing to do whatever is necessary to maintain friendship.

Immediately after 9/11, the president visited a Washington, D.C., mosque and proclaimed Islam a “religion of peace.” He has often said that terrorists are not real Muslims,
Bush: All religions pray to 'same God' 'That's what I believe. I believe Islam is a great religion that preaches peace' (October 7, 2007 WorldNetDaily.com)
President George Bush has repeated his belief all religions, “whether they be Muslim, Christian, or any other religion, prays to the same God” - an assertion that caused outrage among evangelical leaders when he said it in November 2003.
Bush made the statement Friday in an interview with Al Arabiya reporter Elie Nakouzi.
Al Arabiya is Al Jazeerah's top competitor in the Mideast.
As the president and Nakouzi walked from the Oval Office to the Map Room in the White House residence, Nazouki asked, “But I want to tell you - and I hope this doesn't bother you at all - that in the Islamic world they think that President Bush is an enemy of Islam - that he wants to destroy their religion, what they believe in. Is that in any way true, Mr. President?”
“No, it's not,” said Bush. “I've heard that, and it just shows [sic] to show a couple of things: One, that the radicals have done a good job of propagandizing. In other words, they've spread the word that this really isn't peaceful people versus radical people or terrorists, this is really about the America not liking Islam.
“Well, first of all, I believe in an Almighty God, and I believe that all the world, whether they be Muslim, Christian, or any other religion, prays to the same God. That's what I believe. I believe that Islam is a great religion that preaches peace. And I believe people who murder the innocent to achieve political objectives aren't religious people, whether they be a Christian who does that - we had a person blow up our - blow up a federal building in Oklahoma City who professed to be a Christian, but that's not a Christian act to kill innocent people.
Gary Bauer, former presidential candidate and president of American Values, said Bush's comment was “not helpful to the president. Since everybody agrees he's not a theologian, he would be much better advised to punt when he gets that kind of question.” (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58026)



Later in the interview, the president repeated his statement: “I believe there is a universal G-d. I believe the G-d that the Muslim prays to is the same G-d that I pray to. After all, we all came from Abraham. I believe in that universality.”

While numerous others chimed in and excused his statement as one who is not a theologian, I am going to disagree. The basic understanding of the gospel- Jesus is the only way; even children get; one does not need to be a theologian to understand it. This denies an essential teaching of the Christian faith- that a sacrifice was needed for man to be reconciled to God and man must come the way God has given- through his only begotten Son.


To say your own faith is equal to others faith, (there is only one faith Jude 3), Islam- which denies Jesus was crucified for sin and Judas or some look alike was crucified instead, makes this a travesty.
I understand that our political leaders must tone down the rhetoric as we are engaged in a global conflict of terrorism. But, we cannot fight terrorism when you have a president that professes to be Christian says Universalist statements like this. With mosques going up all through the US and a campaign to convince us that Islam has only a few radicals doing this kind of activity it becomes the perfect good cop bad cop scenario. What most people do not realize is that when Mosques go up the Muslims then consider the land holy and soon to be their own. This why they speak of England needing to convert, and do not allow infidels to step put in their country.



Ibn Warraq (author of why I am not a Muslim) informs us ‘Mankind is divided into two groups, Muslims and non-Muslims. The Muslims are…the umma who possess territories in Dar al-Islam, the Land of Islam where the edicts of Islam [Sharia Law] are fully promulgated. The non-Muslims are the Harbi, people of the Dar al-Harb, the Land of Warfare, any country belonging to the infidels that has not been subdued by Islam but that, nonetheless, is destined to pass into Islamic jurisdiction, either by conversion or by war (Harb). All acts of war are permitted in the Dar al-Harb’.


Can true freedom come where Islam thrives? Fighting the terrorists is only a temporary solution in the long run to an ongoing problem of a world religion that teaches to hate and authority over all others as a way of life.
The real solution is to educate them. Unless they question what they are being indoctrinated in they will never look elsewhere for answers. Of course we want to see them have freedom and become believers in Christ Jesus, but this can never be the alternative as long as they are captive to their religious dogma they live with.

If they are brought up with this hatred the next generation will be worse. From Memri.org: The Hamas children's magazine Al-Fateh is published biweekly in London, and is also posted online at www.al-fateh.net. It began publication in September 2002, and its 108th issue was released in mid-September 2007.
The magazine, which features stories, poems, riddles, puzzles, etc., includes incitement to jihad and martyrdom and glorification of terrorist operations and of their planners and perpetrators, as well as characterizations of Jews as “murderers of the prophets” and laudatory descriptions of parents who encourage their sons to kill Jews. In each issue, a regular feature titled “The Story of a Martyr” presents the “heroic deeds” of a mujahid from one of the organizations who died in a suicide operation (including operations against civilians) or who was killed by the IDF.


The magazine also includes illustrations of figures (including child warriors) who embody the ancient Islamic ethos of jihad and martyrdom, presenting them as role models. These include the magazine's titular character, Al-Fateh (“The Conqueror”) - a small boy on a horse brandishing a drawn sword (see Illustration No. 1 below) - as well as children carrying guns (Illustration No. 2), and photos of Hamas fighters launching Qassam rockets (Illustration No. 3).
Some issues feature stories with martyrdom themes, including characters who express a wish to die in battle and meet the virgins of Paradise, and parents who rejoice at their son's death in a jihad operation and celebrate by uttering cries of joy and handing out sweets.”


Remember this is published London, it is not a stretch to think this will take place in America and other countries that have freedom and allow Islam to build there worship centers without any responsibility.


Now may we pause for a moment of panic for mother earth…
or take another bite of Global warmed up baloney sandwiches.

And the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize gooooes to Al Gore for his work to raise awareness about global warming.
Albert (worshipper of Gaia) Gore stands in line as the recipient of the Nobel Peace prize with Jimmy Carter and Yassar Arafat other Nobel prize winners who did nothing for peace. There are other famous men that were nominated in the past- Mussolini, Hitler. His film “an inconvenient truth” is called a documentary (a self aggrandizing film) but it is his acting as if it's the complete truth that should give him an academy award, not just an Oscar. A London high court Judge Michael Burton ruled for a disclaimer to accompany on Al Gores movie because of nine specific falsehoods. Our children were literally introduced to a new paradigm from pseudo scientific evidence to produce a crisis among the younger generation.
Buy your bicycle now while they are cheap and don't forget the bell.

The pollution of the 19th century was cured by car. That's right, the horse was very unsanitary and when one came into a town in the mid 1800's, the manure would welcome their sense of smell. It also carried diseases beside the hazard of walking with clean boots. Now we are faced with a new step to clean up our environment- because the fate of our planet is in peril.


The Global warming argument has so much baloney that there is not enough bread in our state to make sandwiches with it. Global warming is very selective in its effect- Denver saw the coldest day in June on record. Buenos Aires had their first snow in 89 years (7- 12 -07). And let's not overlook that a global warming summit was cancelled for extreme weather- cold. Why is Mars getting hotter without car emissions? Is there something we don't know? Actually, there is a lot we do not know- that Wicca is one of the major religions that contribute to global thought on saving the environment/ the earth- Gaia.


The earth got 1 degree (specifically .07) warmer in 100 years and there is hysteria on this. Who's to say the temperature does not fluctuate 1-2 degrees warm and cold every hundred years? Why would anyone think the weather is consistently static and does not fluctuate century after century. Every place we live it is 1 degree hotter, do we all notice how radical we are all affected. And we have a responsibility to leave the world in better shape for the terrorists to take over.


Can you remember when the ice age was coming? It's not that far back.. Newsweek in 1973 the scientists said global cooling was coming.

In a 1971 Washington Post article, it warned of an impending ice age within 50 years. 'U.S. Scientist Sees New Ice Age Coming,' blares the headline of the July 9, 1971, article, which cautions readers that the world 'could be as little as 50 or 60 years away from a disastrous new ice age, a leading atmospheric scientist predicts.' The scientist was S.I. Rasool, a colleague of Mr. Hansen's at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. The article goes on to say that Mr. Rasool came to his chilling conclusions by resorting in part to a new computer program developed by Mr. Hansen that studied clouds above Venus.”

As if things aren't heating up enough, global warming seems to be blamed for nearly everything. And the price of gas continues to rise. So the best substitute is other alternative fuel sources, right? Have you noticed that Ethanol is now put in with the gas, at least 10% or more! Which actually compounds the problem. You see by going to ethanol it does not reduce the amount of oil used by any significant amount. Besides, Ethanol makes the car run rougher (unless it is an ethanol made engine which is far more expensive).

Corn is a staple food for animals and we are using it now for our fuel. Corn is also the basis for American food. Corn is 4.20 a bushel, triple the price from what was a few years ago. The more corn goes up the more the cost of living does. Corn is in limited supply and is being used for our energy. It takes more as to produce and transport ethanol than it does oil. So It is no different than oil in this respect. It may be lower in carbon emissions but it is higher in others so we can't win with this kind of logic.

So we have a choice- are we going to be dependent on our food for energy, or gas for energy or none of these.


The church and world dance together
By now you must have heard about the Secret DVD or book that is sweeping the country and world as the new spiritual self help trend - popularized by Oprah Winfrey. The Secret is a DVD and book that is sweeping the world into a secular word faith belief. We have done a 5 part expose on these occult techniques that are being popularized in secular society (http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac36.htm.) Oprah has promoted visualization, channeling, yoga, and various other occult type practices along with denying Jesus as God and the only way along with her guests on her program - yet Christians are listening to her advice on “the Secret.” A word of caution, there are those inside the church that associate themselves with the word faith teaching who are involved in the Secret. Paula White recently appeared in the Dallas Morning News alongside Donald Trump (Class “Think Big”) Tony Robbins (Class - “unleash the Power”) and a number of others who are going to teach Classes on becoming a millionaire. Among them was secret teacher Jack Canfield whose subject in class was none other than “the Secret”. Whites Class was called “Why God wants you wealthy. (“This weekend can make you a millionaire” Dallas Morning News May 7, 07.)


Along with the gaining New Age influence in the world is the mass invasion of Yoga into the church.
Dave Hunt explains: “Yoga is dangerous. Yoga is deceitful. The 'correct' pursuit of yoga is designed to call upon demonic power and influence; it invites inside us the very separation from God and ultimate destruction it claims to forestall. Yoga is not good for anyone; clearly it is not acceptable for Christians” (Dave Hunt, Yoga and The Body of Christ: What Position Should Christians Hold? 2006, p. 159). This is the best book on Yoga I have read and it is needed to be read in the church today.


Being a former yoga practioner for nearly 20 years I am able to comment in this area where most cannot. “The practice of Yoga is pagan at best, and occult at worst. Its teachings emanate from the Eastern religions, all of which teach that self is God, only we just don't realize it until we do the techniques. 'The goal of Yoga is self-realization-to look deeply within to what ought to be the temple of the one true God and to discover the alleged true Self or higher Self to be God. Nothing could be more religious than that, yet with straight faces, all of the Yogis insist that practicing Yoga does not change anyone's religious beliefs.'“ (Mike Oppenheimer, Let Us Reason Ministries)


As Johanna Michaelsen has said “You cannot separate the exercises from the philosophy. ... 'The movements themselves become a form of meditation.' The continued practice of the exercises will, whether you ... intend it or not, eventually influence you toward an Eastern/mystical perspective. That is what it is meant to do! ... There is, by definition, no such thing as 'neutral' Yoga” (Johanna Michaelsen, Like Lambs to the Slaughter, pp. 93-95).


One Article had some interesting statistics I thought should be passed on. “Amy Toosley was standing in a split pose when her yoga instructor gave her leg a little prod. “I heard the loudest pop I've ever heard, and the instructor said, 'Ooh! Good release, huh?'“ Toosley recalls. “Not really--I could hardly walk.” With her hamstring muscle snapped, Toosley, 32, avoided yoga for the next three months, and almost a year later, she is still in pain.


“..orthopedic surgeons, physical therapists and chiropractors across the country are dealing with the increasing fallout from yoga gone awry. Over the past three years, 13,000 Americans were treated in an emergency room or a doctor's office for yoga-related injuries, according to the Consumer Product Safety Commission.
Often people get hurt because they assume that yoga is simple and that anybody can pretzel himself or herself on demand. Edward Toriello, an orthopedic surgeon and spokesman for the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons, says most of the injuries he sees are sustained by “weekend warrior” baby boomers who begin yoga without realizing that their bodies are no longer what they used to be. “They think that yoga is an easy way to start exercising, so they go to class once a week, not stretched out at all, and they get hurt.”


The church and its pursuit of the Miraculous
William Brahman, John Lake, Oral Roberts, Kenneth Hagin all have had their influence on the churches teaching from the pulpit and have become icons of healing. I have done an extensive article on the Healing Rooms and John Lake. I must tell you this is very disturbing as many are prophesying it to be to the new Toronto type move of the spirit. (Swimming in Lake Exaggeration-John Lake and the Healing Rooms).

On the Healing room websites they all have this same type of statement about Lake” The United States government declared Spokane, the healthiest city in the world” (Or the US”) --because of Lake’s healing ability. We have found nothing to substantiate any government agency saying this. In fact some claim there were documented, 100,000 healings in one year. We have found nothing to substantiate this claim either. This has been a rumor for 85 years. We contacted the Spokane library and mayors office trying to confirm the many stories told of Lakes miracle prowess and found nothing to confirm the claims that he and others are making of him. There are now over 600 healing rooms and as far as I'm concerned they are not a place you would want to visit for healing.

Recently political liberals tried to pass the fairness doctrine to close down radio broadcasters that have a contrary view. Silencing opposing views is their only alternative because they are unable to justify what they are legislating and supporting. They cannot defend it so instead they want keep the people from hearing the other side and cause confusion. This worldly display of control is also seen inside the church as they exercise management of those who are able to break out of the group think they have been participating in. Many experience a shunning and a personal attack on them when they no longer believe the false doctrine they are being taught at certain churches and want to separate from it and the church.

This same type of silencing is taking place in the church. One example is the pressure to remove the statements of those who stand in opposition to the false teachings of Benny Hinn. From what I have heard, Hinn’s ministry has put pressure on YouTube http://www.independentconservative.com/?p=1353 which carries this statement - This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Pastor Benny Hinn and the World Healing Church d/b/a Benny Hinn Ministries. You would think Hinn would be glad to have more advertisement for his teachings but they know these clips are unfavorable, they are engaged in removing clips that incriminate them in false tecahing.

On the home front
There are two main issues in the church that continues to be vigorously debated, that is- the Trinity and salvation- by faith alone or with baptism. I'm currently working on a new book on the topic of salvation and baptism that hopefully will make it clear why baptism is a command but not part of the salvation message and that those who believe that one must be baptized to be saved are promoting another gospel (Gal.1:6-9).

We have labored in witnessing to cults here in Hawaii since the late 80's. As I have tried to get churches on board to witness to the cults here in Hawaii; they have shown little interest for years. But we have seen hundreds of people exit out and into the church. I can no longer wait as we see time slipping away toward its conclusion. We want to begin a witnessing campaign nationwide. It is introduced as “Caring and admonishing the cult at your door campaign.” We have tried numerous ways to get through to those knocking on our door. I believe this softer confrontational dialogue will make them think and be challenged unlike any other. I have learned what is effective and what is not over the years and as many of you may have noticed, you can win an argument but not the person.

We want to put into the hands of individuals and churches a means to make a difference to those who knock on thousands of our doors each week. Tracts are in the process of being made for those who care for those trapped in Jehovah Witnesses, Mormonism and Moonies. This will be made available on request to any are interested, individuals, ministries and churches. It begins with you- each one of us needs to spend time with people who come to our doors.
I have personally used this witnessing method and found it most effective. An explanation of how to use each tract accompanies it and it will only take 5-10 minutes of your time asking them questions at your door.

The tracts and how to use it will be sent to you either by email or regular mail.






In Christ service,
Mike Oppenheimer

The Wasteland Of Willow Creek

Good new article by my brother in the Lord Paul Proctor.
I hope this article is a wake up call to all the churches who have wasted their money(usually around 200.00 a year to be part of Willow Creeks manmade pseudo Christianity Association) by buying Willow Creeks useless seeker sensitive materials. I would hope these churches would wake up and disassociate fro Willow Creek.-

THE WASTELAND OF WILLOW CREEK







By Paul Proctor

November 14, 2007

NewsWithViews.com

Christianity Today's blog, Out of Ur, posed an intriguing question recently with a post titled, Willow Creek Repents?, where it was reported that Willow Creek Community Church's senior pastor, Bill Hybels, told an audience at his Leadership Summit this year in South Barrington, Illinois that he got "the wake up call" of his adult life.

Out of Ur provided a link in their post to a video clip of Hybels' presentation at that conference where he made a rather startling announcement - and also a link to another video - one from Willow Creek's executive pastor, Greg Hawkins, talking about sitting in Willow Creek's Sunday service week after week - distracted - looking around as the offering plates were being passed and wondering: "Are we spending those folks money in the right way? - Really - Would they feel great about how we're investing their resources? I hope they do - I hope they do; but here's the truth: Some days I'm not quite so sure we're making the right decisions…" which supposedly led him to compile months of what would be disappointing survey and research data for a new book he coauthored with Cally Parkinson entitled, Reveal: Where Are You? - a new release Hybels enthusiastically endorsed in his presentation.

In Hybels' video, he noted that Hawkins had assembled, with his permission, a volunteer team to survey four distinct groups at Willow Creek: "pre-Christians," "beginning Christians," "growing Christians" and "fully devoted followers of Christ."

According to Hybels, each group surveyed was asked: "How helpful is Willow Creek Church being to you?" On a one-to-ten scale, he said the "pre-Christians" gave them nines - the score "new Christians" gave them, he said "came down a little bit" - but then when they got to "growing Christians," the scores started going down significantly - and when it came to "fully devoted followers of Christ," the scores got "scarily low."

He also revealed that after probing further, those in the fully devoted category told them "they're not being fed - that they want more meat of the Word of God - they want more serious-minded scripture taught to them - they want to be challenged more…"

What does Hybels & Company think Willow Creek critics have been saying all these years?

I guess by doing their own surveys and presenting the "earth-shaking" results as a revelation at their Leadership Summit and in a brand new book, Hybels can save face and save customers by admitting comically that he goofed to his chuckling audience in front of the cameras without having to admit that those who rebuked him with the Word of God year after year were right - and that many others who desperately needed the Word of God, yet were denied, have suffered immeasurably for the neglect.

Isn't that the equivalent of saying you just made a few bad business decisions along the way instead of acknowledging before everyone you adversely affected that you sinned against God? So, in response, you make a big announcement, a few procedural adjustments and strategy modifications to your business plan without any real confession, remorse or repentance - tell a few jokes and move on, is that it? I suppose that helps you sustain an illusion of credibility and charm while keeping you in the driver's seat and off the hot seat, doesn't it?

Out of Ur posted a segment of Hybels' videoed response to Hawkins' findings in their piece where he was quoted as saying:


Some of the stuff that we have put millions of dollars into thinking it would really help our people grow and develop spiritually, when the data actually came back it wasn't helping people that much. Other things that we didn't put that much money into and didn't put much staff against is stuff our people are crying out for.
Calling it a confession, Out of Ur continued with the following Hybels' admission, which I consider to be little more than a self-serving spin job:


We made a mistake. What we should have done when people crossed the line of faith and become Christians, we should have started telling people and teaching people that they have to take responsibility to become 'self feeders.' We should have gotten people, taught people, how to read their bible between service, how to do the spiritual practices much more aggressively on their own.
Oh, this is priceless!

So, Willow Creek's "fully devoted followers of Christ" don't know how to read their bibles between services? Is Hybels lying here to try and cover his rear end or is he accidentally revealing the cold hard truth about what they consider to be a "fully devoted follower of Christ?"

Not only that, but rather than take responsibility for failing to feed his flock the meat of the Word during services in the form of a bible study or sermon, they decide "fully devoted followers of Christ" need to go feed themselves somewhere else - which begs the question: Why then should "fully devoted followers of Christ" even bother to come and listen to Hybels or his associates on Sunday or any other day of the week if they're not offering anything substantial to eat there, spiritually speaking? Why don't these devoted followers just leave the empty troughs of Willow Creek altogether and go find pasture elsewhere?

Well, that would jack with their record-breaking numbers, now wouldn't it?

But, you know what? Many "fully devoted followers of Christ" have left their Willow Creek Association member churches to do just that - including yours truly. And, I don't believe for a minute, that their "fully devoted followers of Christ" aren't already feeding on God's Word outside the walls of Willow Creek. In fact, I suspect that it is precisely that outside nourishment that is convincing them of their own church's dereliction of doctrinal duty, because I've been in their shoes and remember quite well how starkly different my faith in Christ was from what I witnessed and experienced, particularly among the leadership, at my former WCA affiliated church seven years ago. My faith was vertical and centered on God's Word. Theirs was largely horizontal and centered on the sensory-driven emotions and experiences of each other with "God" as a backdrop for a business plan that resulted in an artificial atmosphere of marketing and manipulation with little or no biblical discernment, depth or conviction - only a lust for greater numbers, group-think and group participation - as if any of those things had eternal value or significance under God's Throne.

WRFD radio host and columnist Bob Burney responded to Hybels' dubious declaration of benevolent boo-boos with a piece titled, A Shocking "Confession" From Willow Creek Community Church, which first appeared on Townhall.com. Of course, I was pleasantly surprised to see it posted on several sites around the web, and found myself agreeing with Burney's skeptical assessment.

If you haven't already gathered, Willow Creek is a sore subject with me as evidenced by an August 2000 article I titled with the name of my former church, The People's Church, which was followed by a series of short articles that were later compiled into one called, Willow Creek Hegelian Dialectic & The New World Order.

But, you know, what really surprised me, even more than Hybles' public admission, was seeing Burney's article posted on The Baptist Press. The Baptist Press, you see, is the Southern Baptist Convention's news wire service whose central bureau is based in Nashville, Tennessee. The SBC's publishing division is LifeWay Christian Resources where Hybles' books have been sold for years. Even SBC churches that aren't members of the Willow Creek Association have learned much of what they do from Willow Creek, thanks in large part to LifeWay. Clearly Hybels didn't spread this leaven all by himself. He had a lot, and I mean a lot of Southern Baptist help. So, he's not the only one that needs to confess and repent - not that that's what he's actually doing here.

Now, I don't know if posting Burney's article is The Baptist Press' way of trying to rectify their long time support of all things seeker sensitive or they're just attempting to demonstrate some journalistic balance; but in light of the enormous spiritual damage this so called "church growth movement" has done to Southern Baptist churches, not to mention churches of other denominations, they need to do a whole lot more than cosmetically apply one commentary to the problem for appearance sake. Momentarily swinging one's leg over the fence doesn't constitute crossing over or even riding it for that matter.

After 30 years, millions upon millions of misspent dollars, tens of thousands of reinvented churches and scripturally starving who knows how many "seekers" for the sake of numerical growth, are we to simply trade in our soiled WCA lab coats now for fresh ones and follow Hybels on to the next great experiment now that he's owned up to a few of his "felt-needs" faux pas? If you watch his video clip, that seems to be what he is suggesting.

As chronicled in the Out of Ur post, Hybels went on to say this:


Our dream is that we fundamentally change the way we do church. That we take out a clean sheet of paper and we rethink all of our old assumptions. Replace it with new insights. Insights that are informed by research and rooted in Scripture. Our dream is really to discover what God is doing and how he's asking us to transform this planet.
It is said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome. If you view the clip, you'll see that Hybels is still focus-grouping his way forward, pursuing as before, Results & Relationships via compromise and consensus, rather than simply proclaiming the Word of God as pastors are called to do with a humble and obedient heart that yields instead of leads.


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"As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly." - Proverbs 26:11

In consideration of all the scriptural neglect he and his colleagues have facilitated over the years trying to "transform the planet," (sounds like an alien invasion) is Hybels' oopsy-daisy admission that "We made a mistake" his idea of repentance? Seeing as we're talking about the founder of the world's largest and most influential seeker-sensitive church, it would certainly seem so.

But, if this pragmatic preacher doesn't expect real repentance from his "converts," I suppose we shouldn't expect it from him either.

Now for all you WCA member churches out there who have been financing this fiasco with your tithes and offerings by purchasing Willow Creek's seeker friendly products and services to "reinvent your church" and "transform your planet" - you could ask for your money back - but I'm sure they need it to buy more lab rats.

As for retrieving your souls - you'll just have to take that up with the Lord Jesus.

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." - 1st John 2:4-5

Related Articles:

1. Willow Creek Repents?
2. A Shocking "Confession" From Willow Creek Community Church
3. The People's Church
4. Willow Creek Hegelian Dialectic & The New World Order
5. The Test of Faith
6. What's Wrong With The 21st Century Church?

© 2007 Paul Proctor - All Rights Reserved

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Hot of the Press

From my friend and brother in the Lord Bud Press-

Updated Tuesday, Nov 13, 2007
Convention Disfellowships Myers Park
By Norman Jameson
BR Editor
Messengers to the Baptist State Convention overwhelmingly rejected an appeal by Myers Park Baptist Church in Charlotte to remain in fellowship with North Carolina Baptists.

While messengers voted overwhelmingly their willingness to hear the Myers Park appeal, they voted similarly to reject it and sustain the decision of their Executive Committee which ruled on Monday the church was not in compliance with membership articles.

By its own admission Myers Park's acceptance of homosexual persons into positions of leadership in the church positions it in opposition to membership article 6a3 which says any church which affirms or blesses homosexual behavior is to be considered "not in friendly cooperation" with the BSC.

Myers Park deacon Nancy Walker expressed appreciation for Myers Park's electing her to the diaconate "without regard to my sexual orientation."

She related the loneliness and pain of homosexual friends who have been rejected by church and family. "Open your hearts to all who seek to worship God," Walker asked messengers. "Reach out to people who have experienced pain and spiritual isolation."

"No matter your vote today I will be a witness in the world for love, compassion and reconciliation," Walker said.

Myers Park pastor Steve Shoemaker addressed the messengers and said, "I appeal to you by the mercies of God to refrain from removing churches like ours from fellowship."

"Jesus welcomed those considered outcasts as sinners by those religious into the kingdom of God drawing near," said Shoemaker, who said Myers Park slowly overcame its original resistance to inclusion of gay and lesbian persons, "as Peter overcame his resistance to including Gentiles in the kingdom of God."

Board of Directors President Allan Blume emphasized that no church has been "turned in" for investigation under the Sanderson motion, article 6a3 adopted last year, but that Myers Park had self-identified its opposition to the standard.

"They are asking to make an exception," Blume said. "The church today has by its own admission been in violation."

Blume told messengers Myers Park had sent no messengers to the Convention for at least eight years, contributed "extremely little" financially and is aligned with several organizations which affirm or bless homosexual behavior.

During discussion Jim Burch said social scientists peg 2.5 percent of the population living a gay or lesbian lifestyle. Carried statistically into churches, Burch said that would disqualify "a great deal of us."

"We have the opportunity to use a bylaw ill timed and ill passed to club a church, or to extend to them the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and say, 'As you claim Christ as Savior and we claim Christ as Savior then we are brothers and sisters in Christ.'"

Other discussion emphasized speakers' views on homosexuality as sin. Blume said, "The Executive Committee is simply following governing documents of this Convention and we encourage the Convention to stand with us on this decision." He then moved that, "Myers Park" no longer be considered a church in friendly cooperation, at the word of their own admission."

Why do you call me Lord?

Because of some comments I have gotten lately I wanted to share this article with you.
Peace Tim









Matthew 25:24-46
24 "Then he who had received the one talent came and said, 'Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed.

25 'And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.'

26 "But his lord answered and said to him, 'You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed.

27 'So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest.

28 'Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

29 'For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away.

30 'And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 'for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;

36 'I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?

38 'When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?

39 'Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'

41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 'for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;

43 'I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'

44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'

45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'

46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

There are many genuine born again Christians in Churches today, but unfortunately many mainstream church Shepard's are deceiving much of their congregations with doctrines of devils.

Most churches in Australia and in the West are teaching the prosperity doctrine, and are claiming it is from God even though it's clear the whole prosperity teaching is satanically inspired to distance people from God. If you support and belong to a church that is teaching the prosperity doctrine, this clearly demonstrates that you are apart of a church that does not bear any good fruit, because it isn't following Christ's commandments, which are designed to bear fruit. Jesus said, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 22:37-40). This is NOT an attack on all church congregations, as there are many genuine and sincere church goers who love the Lord and are going to heaven who attend these churches, however many of them are victims of False Shepard's who are deceiving the sheep and goats.


Matt 3:10
10 "And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

You cannot bear fruit if you are not obeying Jesus, churches who claim to be doing good works and bearing fruit are simply not bearing fruit, because you cannot bear fruit to God's Kingdom if you are disobeying Jesus. The churches may be able to put on a show and dance about how they are doing good works etc, but if they are not obeying Jesus their fruit is useless to God. You cannot bear fruit without Jesus Christ who is the Vine.

John 15:4-6
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.



Do you belong to a church full of sheep? Or do you belong to a church that is full of goats?
Just because someone worships Jesus with their lips and calls him Lord, and seems to cast out devils and do wonders in His name, does this mean that the church congregation is saved? Let's look at some words from Jesus Christ to shed some light on this matter:

Matthew 7:22-23
22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'

23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Calling Jesus Lord and doing wonders in His name simply does not guarantee eternal life in Heaven. To be truly born again of the spirit and to have eternal life in Heaven after you die, your heart needs to be close to Jesus. "Wherefore the Lord said, For as much as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me." (Isaiah 29:13). Many churches do not have their hearts close to Jesus, because they simply do not follow his commandments. To have your heart close to Jesus you must love Him, Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15).

Many of these prosperity doctrine churches are claiming that it is God's will that we store up treasures here on earth, as all the treasures we store up on earth are blessings from God, and that God wants us to have luxury houses and extravagant cars and the most expensive brand name clothes. This prosperity doctrine of extravagant living and striving to be rich teaching is demonically inspired, and anyone teaching it is defying the fundamental commandments of Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for your selves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also" (Matthew 6:19-21). Is your church teaching you to store up treasures on earth? If yes, then your heart cannot be in Heaven close to Jesus, because Jesus said "where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

Jesus clearly gave a commandment when he said "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth", any church teaching any contradicting prosperity doctrine hates Jesus, because Jesus said; "If you love me, keep my commandments." So here we see a clear example of how many of these corrupt prosperity churches are worshiping Jesus with their lips and mouths, but whose hearts are FAR from Him. In order to be born again and be saved you must give your heart to the Lord, and you cannot give your heart to the Lord if your heart is far from Him when you listen and practice the lies of a corrupt prosperity preacher. It's a very sad fate for the Christians who attend these churches, because if your heart is far from Jesus you simply cannot give your heart to Him and be born again, because to know Jesus your heart needs to be close to Him. Jesus clearly said calling Him Lord is not enough and that if he does not know you, he will tell you to depart from Him, and He will cast you into everlasting punishment. (Matthew 7: 22-23).

Jesus said that many would come to Him and say; "Lord didn't we cast out devils in your name and do many wonders?" And Jesus is going to say to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me." The key words here are: "I never knew you". To know Jesus your heart needs to be in Heaven with Him. If your storing treasures up here on earth, Jesus said that it's impossible for your heart to be in Heaven with Him to know Him, because He said, "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

If you do not want Jesus to say, "I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness", you need to stop following the demonic prosperity doctrine of storing up treasures on earth, and you need to start storing up treasures in Heaven by: spending your money on gospel tracts to give out on the street, purchasing bibles to send to China and third world nations, and giving money to homeless people on the street; instead of sending money to a prosperity preacher who lives in a mansion, drives a sports car and who claims you can serve mammon and God. Prosperity preachers are serving Satan and cannot be serving God, Jesus clearly said, "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon" (Matthew 6:24).

This is not an attack against all Christians who attend churches that teach the prosperity doctrine, there are many sincere Christians who are sheep in these churches but are being deceived by False Shepard's.

I pray the sheep who are being deceived in these churches by False Shepard's will "Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you." Then God will say"I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty." (2 Cor 6:17-18)

article edited by Tim Wirth

Doug Pagitt and more Emergent Madness

I found this transcript on Rob Willmann’s blog.It features the ever popular Doug Pagitt. I hope others will not consider this judging but its scary that Doug pastors a church. Whats even scarier is that Doug calls himself a Christian. Why call yourself something you dont really believe in. Doug may call himself a Christian but for sure he is not a believer in the biblical sense.Check out how Doug does not even give a straight answer to a simple question. The Emergent Church is trying to rewrite scripture and shape God into their own image.
So in fact its not really scripture or the One True God.
I've said it before on Pulpit Magazine and I'll say it again .
The Best way to expose what the Emergent church is all about is to let Doug Pagitt keep on talking.
Here is the transcript-

After listening to the WOTM radio show the other afternoon, I was blown away by how far down the slippery slope the Emergent group has gone. I blogged about it, and then I realized that it would behoove the blogging community to have the entire transcript of the show. So I typed it out. Please forgive my spelling mistakes and lack of clarity in places.

First, here’s the link to the MP3 of the podcast from WOTM:

And here’s the transcript:

(Todd starts presentation 5:46 into the show.)

Intro (Todd Friel): Yes indeedy there is a problem in evangelical Christianity. That’s a bad thing. The good news is there’s some folks called the Emergents who have identified the problem… the problem being: there seems to be no application of the stuff that’s taught in the Bible. It seems to be a rather disconnected sort of faith – bottom line: there appear to be hypocrites and to that, and to all the Emergent folks I say ‘A-MEN’!

This is Way of the Master Radio.

The question then becomes - What do we do now that we’ve diagnosed the problem? There seems to be people who profess a faith in Jesus Christ, but they do not possess that faith. They are not living it.

We agree with the Emergents: That is absolutely pervasive and it is a huge problem. How we go about fixing that is another thing altogether.

We are very happy, and frankly a little surprised . Joining us on the telephone today is Doug Pagitt. You may be familiar with the person’s name – he is one of the … mmm…. leaders. I’m not sure he’d be nuts about that title but he’s definitely one of the higher profile Emergent fellows. He’s the pastor at Solomon’s Porch. You can visit the website: SolomonsPorch.com. You can also visit their website. It’s EmergentVillage.com and he’s with us on the telephone today.

Todd: Doug Pagitt

Doug: Todd Friel. We’re very grateful that you’re coming on the show today. Thank you very much.

Doug: Well thanks for taking a little time for having me on.

Todd: Alright would you, would you agree that we agree there’s something wrong in Christianity that a lot of people don’t act the way they profess. Fair enough?

Doug: Yea, I mean, yea I think that’s true. That’s not really the motivation in my life or the people I hang around with. We’re not uhm, that’s not the prime uh motivator that we have about, you know, the way that we do our church, or the way that we interact with people, but I do think it’s true that many people’s lives stay disconnected from their belief system.

Todd: Then, then speaking as as an emergent fellow, then what is the prime motivator of the emergent movement?

Doug: Uh Uh the prime motivator is to try live well in the world with God, and to invite other people to join in the way of Jesus in the world. So it’s not really trying to fix uhm, struggles that other people, other Christians are having. It’s really trying to join together in what seems to be the uhm active work of God in the world. And uh to invite people to join in that work.

Todd: And what about the afterlife?

Doug: Yea, uhh, I like to refer to it as the forevermore life. Uhm, But yea, I mean, that’s uhm, that’s uh a really important piece of the whole understanding of God is that uh, uh, like at the end of our uh worship gatherings together at our church we say uhm, we recite this uh, this last long sentence out of the book of Jude. And it’s one of those pieces that ends with uhm, with uhm, uhm, calling for the work that God’s gonna do to be now as God has done in the past, does now, and will do evermore. And so it’s this really wonderful notion that the Christian church has always held to – that there’s a sense of the continuation of the continuous work of God.

Todd: Alright.

Doug: And how, you know, how individual people interact in that. I think we best understand that through the – through the resurrection of Jesus. But yeah, that’s what we’re interested in – is inviting people in to participate with God here, as they have in the past. And stay [?] a uhm, uh, a part of the work of God in the world forevermore.

Todd: Alright. I’m going – I’m going to Jude verse 23: “..Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment.”

Doug: Yeah, yeah. It’s helpful, isn’t it?

Todd: Yea, do you think, do you think there’s an eternal damnation for people who are not Christians?

Doug: Yeah, well, I think that there’s.. I think there’s all kinds of … I mean that, that, damnation would sort of be that.. that there’s parts of the uh, life in Creation that seem to be counter to what God is doing and those are the things that are eliminated and removed and done away with. And so I think that’s what damnation is, and so there’s people who want to live out that kind of uhm, wanna have that good judgment – the judgment of God in their life. I mean you know Judge… Judgment in a biblical fashion meaning that God remakes… that God remakes the world.

Todd: OK, Doug, hold on Doug… Doug hold on a second. I have no idea what you just said. Here’s what I think Hell is: eternal damnation, God sends lawbreakers to a place where there’s weeping, there’s gnashing of teeth, a lake of sulpher, the worm never dies, eternal conscious torment. Agree or disagree?

Doug: Disagree.

Todd: What do you think Hell is?

Doug: I think Hell is disconnection and disintegration from God.

Todd: I agree with that also.

Doug: I have NO idea what you mean uh, with those.. uh. Those sound like .. Those sound much more like metaphors than they do like actuality. But I don’t know…

Todd: Well those are the words that Jesus used to describe Hell.

Doug: I know. Oh yeah I know.

Todd: Alright, OK.

Doug: Yes, I know but Jesus [chuckle]but

Todd: So, Doug I….

Doug: But Jesus didn’t use them in a string like that. So you just pulled a bunch of words from Jesus and strung them together in your own way and then made a….

Todd: It’s called systematic theology. Doug, I’m a good Buddist. Do I get to go to Heaven or Hell?

Doug: No, it’s not called systematic theology. It’s called you restating it.

Todd: Doug, I am a good Buddhist. Where do I go when I die?

[silent pause]

Doug: You, you know this is not an interesting conversation for me. Is this what we’re gonna do? You’re gonna… Your gonna put together false little dichotomies and then ask me to answer one sentence and then interrupt my answers?

Todd: I don’t know what’s hard about the question. I am a good Buddhist, where do I go when I die?

Doug: Well you probably go to the funeral home, but depending on where you’re being born if that’s what you’re talking about.

Todd: No, pastor. I’m a good Buddhist. Where do I go when I die?

Doug: [laugh] Ok. This is not.. This is just not an interesting or helpful conversation for me to be part of. So if that’s what we’re doing uh, in this conversation, then uhm… It’s.. it. Because what – what you’re asking in this - in this kind of question has to do with a place. Are you suggesting to me that Heaven is actually a place? When you say where do I go, you’re suggesting to me that the reign of God, that the place of God is an.. is an individual PLACE that you go? Is that what you’re suggesting?

Todd: Yes, sir.

Doug: Where, where is that place?

Todd: It’s called heaven.

Doug: Where is it?

Todd: We don’t know where it is exactly right now.

Doug: Then why would you ask a question, “where do I go?”

Todd: Just because I don’t know where it is doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Besides sir, this is… This is…this is the core of Christianity..

Doug: Then why would you ask where? Why do you ask where?

Todd: This is no-brainer land, sir.

Doug: It is not no-brainer land. It’s a nonsequiter.

Todd: Sure it is. I’m a good Muslim. Where do you think I go, pastor?

Doug: Where do I go? See here we go again. Now you’re talking about a place..

Todd: What happens to my soul when I die?

Doug: Ok, now THERE’s a different question.

Todd: Alright

Doug: There you go.

Todd: What happens to my soul when I die?

Doug: There you go. And I’m not just.. you know. You’re the guy who wants to be precise about words. That’s why you put sentences together like this.

Todd: Don’t you?

Doug: Yes very much…

Todd: OK

Doug: That’s why when you put together questions like that…

Todd: Alright.

Doug: … and ask them they don’t make any sense.

Todd: I’m a good Muslim. What happens to my soul when I die?

Doug: You are… you interact with God, just as every other human being interacts with God.

Todd: You mean Hebrews 9: “It is appointed to a man once to die and then judgment?”

Doug: Right, yea, that’s interaction with…

Todd: So he gets judged?

Doug: Right, that’s interaction with God.

Todd: Uh huh, and so…

Doug: Yeah.

Todd: What’s… what’s going to happen to the… How is God going to judge the good Muslim?

Doug: Does it.. God’s going to judge the life and repair and restore and heal the life of everybody in the same way. There’s gonna be no difference between what God…

Todd: So the Muslim is ultimately not going to be… go to a bad place. He’s ultimately going to be restored with God when he dies?

Doug: No, there’s going to be no difference between the way God going to interact with you when you die and the way God’s going to interact with a Muslim when a Muslim dies.

Todd: So I wanna put… I wanna put this into my fundamentalist language. What I just heard you say is: There is no difference between the Christian and the Muslim afterlife. God is going to have a good place prepared for both of us.

Doug: No, I… No I didn’t say a place. See, here you go again.

Todd: Ok, a good thing, a good event, a good existence.

Doug: I didn’t say a place. What I said was, the way God’s going to interact with you is the same way that God’s going to interact with everybody. The same experience of all of humanity. God will… God will interact with all of humanity in judgment the same, no matter who you are, or what your parents have taught you, or what you believe.

Todd: (softly) Uhhh…

Doug: Now how a person’s life translates into the evermore, that’s something that .. for one to sit on a telephone conversation and say about … nonexistent actual person muslim as compared to Todd, For me to suggest that I’m gonna tell you how God is going to interact with that individual person. What the result of that is going to be is not at all within the bounds of historical Christianity.

Todd: It’s n. But. n.. Mmmmmm… Doug Pagitt, Solomonsporch.com Actually I think that’s exactly what historical Christianity is about and the Emergents are trying to change that.

Doug: I know you think that’s what it is, but I would suggest to you that’s not at all ….

Todd: Ahh..so I’m, I’m wrong.

Doug: (unintelligible) What I would suggest you do is that I suggest you go and read Acts chapters 16, 17, and 18 as we did out loud in our church last night.

Todd: Yep, I’m happy to do that sir, but Jesus, Jesus said that He’s going to judge and it’s going to be sheep and goat.

Doug: And I’d be… and I think you’d find what the apostle Paul says about what happens to all people in their creation and interaction with God. I think that’s where you’ll find it.

Todd: Uhm, It seems to me that he says very clearly that those people whose sins are not forgiven will be destroyed. They will go to Hell. It will be a terrible day. There will be a judgment on those who have never repented and trusted the Savior.

Doug: What, Now, now, here here, here again Todd I think that….

Todd: That’s simple. That’s foundational. That’s orthodox, and anything outside of that is heresy.

Doug: No it’s not Todd. It’s you stringing togeth.. Todd, it’s you stringing together a series of pop phrases that you’ve heard from the Bible..

Todd: (insert indignant/flabbergasted sound here.)

Doug: and making up your own conclusion to them. That’s what you just did. You can play….

Todd: Well. Pop phrases from the Bible. OK.

Doug: You can play the tape back if you want and watch how you took passages from by my count 4 different biblical passages, strung them together, and made your own conclusion.

Todd: How else do you do it, sir?

Doug: Now if your comfortable, if you’re confortable with that being historical Christianity…

Todd: I am, I am. I am very comfortable.

Doug: I certainly wouldn’t…

Todd: I’m very comfortable. How do you put your theology together?

Doug: Because that’s not what it is.

Todd: How do you do it?

Doug: Well what you do is you read the actual Bible story. You read the actual narratives. You read the actual letters. You read what was actually said and you let it speak for itself. You don’t go chopping it up … into it’s own little pieces, string it together, and make your own conclusion.

Todd: Alright, so let’s just do one where Jesus said there’s going to be sheep and goats.

Doug: The Christian church has condemned that kind of behavior from the beginning.

Todd: OK

Doug: And I had no idea you did that kind of stuff because I’m not familiar with you whatsoever, but that, that is just not..

Todd: Alright. Then let’s… Doug…

Doug: …at all the way that a reasonable Christian person should intereact with the Scriptures.

Todd: Well, ok. That’s… that’s the way it’s been done for a long time, but nevertheless.

Doug: No it’s not the way it’s been done for a long time. See, your people…

Todd: Well you’re the one emerging, not me. OK. Nevertheless, let’s take one verse at a time.

Doug: Well, maybe, but your people, but whatever, I don’t know what stream you’re from, but whatever stream it is that taught you how to interact with the Bible in that way…

Todd: That old fashioned grammatical historical approach.

Doug: …you might want to go back and look at some other way to interact.

Todd: Yea, well no I don’t need a new way. The grammatical historical works just fine for me. Well, nevertheless, let’s just take one verse….

Doug: The grammatical historical method? You’re using the historical method?

Todd: Grammatical historical yessir.

Doug: The grammatical historical method?

Todd: Yessir.

Doug: By taking different passages of the Bible…

Todd: Mmmm Hmmm.

Doug: Stringing them together and drawing your own conclusion?

Todd: Yea, that’s how it’s done.

Doug: I don’t think anyone would suggest that that’s the “grammical” (unintelligible)….

Todd: what. Do you come up with a conclusion first, and then go find verses to support it?

Doug: No, you let the verses tell you what the conclusions are themselves.

Todd: I agree with that.

Doug: You don’t pick from four different places….

Todd: I don’t know what the difference is. OK

Doug: … from four different authors .. string them together and then make your own conclusions.

Todd: Alright. OK. Alright. Sir, let’s just focus on verse: Romans says….

Doug: [laughter] Which one? Let’s out loud… which, which verse? Which?

Todd: Let’s just focus on one, that God says that He’s storing up punishment for those who refuse to repent.

Doug: (unintelligible)

Todd: That’s easy. What do you do, what do you do with that verse, sir. What do you do with all the judgment verses? That Jesus said He’s gonna say “Depart from me you worker of iniquity, I never knew you.” How do you as an Emergent deal with those verses?

Doug: I think they have all to do with people being, uh, eliminated from what God is doing in the world. So when judgment comes, the judgment verses, all have to do with what judgment is. And what the Bible says judgment is - is to (Korem sp?) in the Old Testament, in the Hebrew. The “korem”, is to uh, is to replace that which is not in agreement with God with that which IS in agreement with God – This is the same notion as the uh, the uh, the fire that …. purifies. Judgment is when God recreates the world in the way that it ought to be. The purpose of judgment is to make the world the way that it ought to be. So, from Genesis all the way through Revelation, the finalization of judgment, is the recreation of the Heavens and the earth.

Todd: OK, now let’s say that we agree on that.

Doug: That’s what it is.

Todd: Who’s going to, who’s going to be in the, in that nice place? A good Buddhist and a good Muslim, will they go there?

Doug: No, see now now, now again you’ve created this… this no…. this idea, which apparently you’re stuck with here, that there are places.

Todd: Well you’ve just described it, sir.

Doug: No I didn’t just describe it.

Todd: You said He’s going to recreate a heaven and earth.

Doug: No I didn’t just describe another place.

Todd. Oh. What is it then?

Doug: It’s the recreation of all that exists.

Todd: Is is a real place? Is it a real thing?

Doug: Here we go again. I mean, I am starting to worry that maybe what you’re, what you’re articulating here (Todd laughs) is the Platonic understanding of the cosmos.

Todd: Are we here? Sir, are we here? Do we exist?

Doug: That really what you’re into here is some kind of a… of a… a dualistic Platonic understanding of the cosmos. I’m beginning to think that maybe .. you’re gonna suggest next that God is distant and removed from the earth.

Todd: Mmmm… In a sense yes, in a sense no, but nevertheless sir, are we here?

Doug: Well that’s because you .. apparently, yea that would be consistent with this Platonic understanding that Heaven is this other place.

Todd: Am I real? Doug, am I real? Do I exist?

Doug: Well I think so, I’ve only heard your voice, but that… we’ve every indication.

Todd: OK. Well that, that’s good, OK good. So we’re, we’re here. This is actual. This is stuff. We, We exist on this planet right?

Doug: Yea

Todd: OK, so when God creates a new heaven and a new earth, what is that going to be if it’s not an actual place?

Doug: It’s a recreated … heaven and earth.

Todd: OK, fine. Who’s gonna be there?

(Silent Pause)

Doug: There?

Todd: (unintelligible mumbling.)

Doug: See, here we, oh boy. Here we go again. This is just not working.

Todd: I agree!

Doug: (laughing) It’s unbelievable. See I have a very difficult time working with the dualistic Platonic, Platonist like yourselves, because I have to be taken back into … remind myself, that rather than following the Jesus narrative, I have to go into Plato, and Socrates understanding of the cosmos, so they can end up with a Heaven in one place, in one sphere, and functioning by one set of rules…

Todd: So Heaven…. Let me, let me, then let me try to understand you sir.

Doug: ….and then the earth, and then the earth in another sphere, functioning according to a different set of rules.

Todd: Then let me try to understand your narrative. Is Heaven and Hell together?

Doug: Unbelievable.

Todd: I agree. It’s unbeleivable sir, you’re right. Is Heaven and Hell, uh, OK so what is it exactly? (laughter)

Doug: (laughter) See you create this context right, and you create this structure…

Todd: Yes because Jesus said “I go to prepare a place for you.” OK, well, I don’t know.

Doug: …and then you ask about it as a “where” and a place, and then you say to me, “Would you please define for me what it is.”

Todd: Sir, when….

Doug: I mean, If you’re unclear about it, then maybe you ought to, I mean, you can go look at what Plato or Dante’s understanding of Hell is,.

Todd: Yea, well, I don’t, I don’t, yea…..

Doug:…. because the description you gave… The description you gave was….

Todd: You know I’m not doing that to you sir. I’m not, I’m not doing that to you with those kind of reckless characterizations but nevertheless…

Doug: Yes you are.

Todd: Would you, would you preach at the funeral of a Muslim? Pastor would you preach at the funeral of a Muslim?

Doug: Would I preach at the funeral of a Muslim?

Todd: Yessir.

Doug: I’ve never been asked to preach at a funeral of a Muslim.

Todd: Let’s say you were. Let’s say you were.

Doug: Well, if I have a Muslim friend. If one of my Muslim friends were to die and they asked me to talk to the funeral?

Todd: Mmmmm. Hmmmm.

Doug: Course I would.

Todd: And what hope would you offer their Muslim family?

Doug: Oh, I’d offer them the same… the the… the hope that I offer everybody and that’s reconciliation with God that comes through Jesus Christ.

Todd: Alright, sir. Now you recognize, and, and I’m not gonna sling this around recklessly, but if I understand, IF I understand you correctly…. what you’re presenting is outside of orthodox, historic Christianity. You do ahh, realize that, don’t you?

Doug: No, what YOU’RE suggesting in this phone conversation is outside the bounds of orthodox Christianity because it’s riddled with Platonism, and it’s riddled with the cosmology that would never be acceptable to uh, Christians through the ages.

Todd: Like Luther, and Calvin, and Spurgeon, and Whitefield, and Moody? Those guys wouldn’t agree with me, they’d agree with you?

Doug: Yeeaaaa… well, I can’t tell you everything that you believe about things, but if they had to listen to this conversation, I think they’d be terrified by the … [theme music cut off his sentence.]

Todd: I think they’d be terrified too, sir. Doug Pagitt of SolomonsPorch.com. We’ll let everybody decide. Do you understand what just happened here? This is way of the Master radio.

[End transcript.]