The No Goofy Zone Discernment Ministry

The No Goofy Zone is a discernment ministry for saved born again Christians and all who are seeking the truth.We expose non-biblical trends in the church. We are making material available to advance understanding of issue's which endanger Christianity. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit.

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Location: Piqua, Ohio, United States

Former drummer for Gary Lewis and The Playboys and The Coasters. Tim has also played with Paul Baloche, Lincoln Brewster, Darlene Zscech and Hillsongs, Jeff Fenholt, SteveCamp among others. Tim founded The Simply Agape Project in 2001 to get free Christian music to the troops. Recordings have been made with Tim, and friends Alex Acuna, Abe Laboriel SR, Justo Almario,Steve Camp , Jared Ming and some wonderful Independant Christian artists.The Somebody Brave CD also features words of encouragment to the soldiers from Pastors, Moms, Dads, and Lt Col Brian Birdwell a Pentegon 9/11 survivor Tim is married to Donna Wirth and has four children Alan 25,Steven 23, Brittany 22, Bethany 21. Tim has played in numerous churchs as well as shows on TBN. Tim has also performed on JCTV on the show Generation Worship featuring worship leader Jared Ming. Tim has a book published worldwide titled "Pass The Plate And Let Us Prey" (My Search For Black and White Christianity in a Gray Nation)

Monday, June 30, 2008

Oprah Winfrey Logic and Discernment

I stumbled on this over at Phoenix Preacher and thought the article was interesting and said a lot about Michael Newnham and his ability to discern.

Here is the link to that article

Here are a couple gems from that article.

"Bernard was a Catholic monk…and a mystic.
He also is probably more responsible for the cult of Mary in Catholicism today than any other father.
However, along with these and other dogmas that both the Reformers rejected, Bernard wrote some of the seminal theology that evolved into the doctrine of justification that we hold to in Protestantism today.
While both men quoted more frequently from Augustine than any other father, Bernard was quoted often and was commended highly by both men.
He was also held by both not only to be a brother, but a "doctor" in the church"

Luther and Calvin could affirm Bernard as a brother and glean from his work that which was good and biblical without embracing everything he wrote.
A true, mature believer can glean from all of the above as well as Warren, Henri Nouwen, Richard Foster and the rest of the brethren that the asses never stop braying at.
The one incident I'm most ashamed of that happened here was when I jumped on Rolph for recommending Nouwen…then read with wonder Nouwen's "Prodigal Son".
I was immature and ignorant and proud of both.
That in my opinion, is the perpetual state of most of the "discernment ministries".
Unfortunately, it's too often my state as well.
If Luther and Calvin can practice a "generous orthodoxy"…we should too. end quote

And of course read the whole article so you can be sure I am not taking Michael out of context with the two quotes I am using.

I also think its a natural transition for many in the Reformed/Calvinist crowd (not all though) to start to join with the Emergent church and those authors that Emergents promote. And I think Michael himself states the reasons why.

To me this is a Oprah Winfrey style of logic that lacks serious discernment and let me explain why. Oprah as well states that she is a Christian. She also has stated that she does not believe that Jesus could not possibly be the only way. Oprah would agree that we could learn lots of things from good people as she exposes many people to her new age ideas.

So since Oprah states she is a Christian it must be ok to go with whoever she endorses. We may not agree with everything that person states but Im sure we may find something good in what they have to offer.

That is Oprah Winfrey logic.

Now I sincerely do not believe that Oprah is a Christian and I have no reason to believe that Michael Newnman is not a Christian.

But Michael could very easily expose a Christian to very real danger the same way his pal Richard Abanes does.

So Michael thinks that we discernment ministries are immature and ignorant because we caution against new age forms of spirituality and prayer that are outside of scripture?

I guess then its smart to state for Christians that they can learn a little something from anyone who calls him or herself a Christian.

That may stroke the intellict but will it make them grow as a Christian?

Or will it open them up to dangerous new age ideas?

You decide.

You could use this type of logic to justify gleaning from anyone lets take a look at Henri Nouwen first.

From my friend and brother in the Lord Ray Yungen's book "A Time Of Departing"

An individual who has gained popularity and respect in Christian circles, akin to that of Thomas Merton, is the now deceased [Roman] Catholic theologian Henri Nouwen… Many pastors and professors are greatly attracted to his deep thinking. In fact, one of his biographers revealed that in a 1994 survey of 3,400 U.S. Protestant church leaders, Nouwen ranked second only to Billy Graham… (61)

Unfortunately, this widely read and often-quoted author, at the end of his life, stated in clear terms that he approached God from a universalistic view. He proclaimed: “Today I personally believe that Jesus came to open the door to God’s house, all human beings can walk through that door, whether they know about Jesus or not. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her way to God.” (Nouwen, Sabbatical Journey, p.51)

Nouwen’s endorsement of a book by Hindu spiritual teacher Elnath Easwaran, teaching mantra meditation, further illustrates his universalistic sympathies. On the back cover, Nouwen stated, “This book has helped me a great deal.” (62)

Nouwen was clearly a universalist who also struggled in some other areas of life. No matter what the guy wrote why would a Christian wanted to glean off a universalist.

Then there is Richard Foster who endorses the new age form of prayer called contemplative prayer.

Foster states that there are certain styles of prayer that you need to use caution.

Where in the Bible does it state this?

Where in the Bible does it state that certain types of prayer are not for the novice.

Here is some real words of caution from my brother in the Lord Roger Oakland.

"Contemplative Prayer or Terror?"
Proponents of contemplative prayer say the purpose of contemplative prayer is to tune in with God and hear His voice. However, Richard Foster claims that practitioners must use caution. He admits that in contemplative prayer "we are entering deeply into the spiritual realm" and that sometimes it is not the realm of God even though it is "supernatural." He admits there are spiritual beings and that a prayer of protection should be said beforehand something to the effect of "All dark and evil spirits must now leave."1 Where in Scripture do we find such a prayer? Where in witchcraft?
I wonder if all these Christians who now practice contemplative prayer are following Foster's advice. Whether they are or not, they have put themselves in spiritual harm's way. Nowhere in Scripture are we required to pray a prayer of protection before we pray. The fact that Foster recognizes contemplative prayer is dangerous and opens the door to the fallen spirit world is very revealing. What is this--praying to the God of the Bible but instead reaching demons? Maybe contemplative prayer should be renamed contemplative terror.
While Foster has said repeatedly that contemplative prayer is for everyone, he contradicts himself when he says it is only for a select group and not for the "novice."2 He says not everyone is ready and equipped to listen to God's voice through the "all embracing silence."3
This is amazing. Foster admits that contemplative prayer is dangerous and will possibly take the participant into demonic realms, but he gives a disclaimer saying not everyone is ready for it. My question is, who is ready, and how will they know they are ready? What about all the young people in the emerging church movement? Are they ready? Or are they going into demonic altered states of consciousness completely unaware? Given Foster's admission of the danger, he does great damage when he says: "We should all, without shame, enroll in the school of contemplative prayer."4
Foster's implication that some contemplative prayer is safe is terribly mistaken. No contemplative prayer is biblical or safe--even the most mature of the Christian mystical leaders proved susceptible to its demonic pull. Thomas Merton at the end of his life said he wanted to be the best Buddhist he could be. Henri Nouwen at the end of his life said all paths lead to God. This was the spiritual fruit of their lives after years of practicing mystical prayer.

[In relation to mysticism and contemplative prayer], the real question is whether or not the realm of the silence is God's realm or Satan's--light or darkness. The Bible tells us that Satan is very deceptive, and what can often look good is not good at all:

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness. (II Corinthians 11:14-15)

The word occultism means hidden or secret. There are two connotations to this. The first level involves employment of these practices themselves. Throughout human history, mystical techniques were used by only a small number of persons. The terms esoteric and arcane are often used to signify the fact that these practices have been traditionally concealed. Occult methods almost always employ the use of altered states of consciousness induced by prolonged focus and repetition--a practice that has largely been unknown to many ... until now!
A second and perhaps more important concept agrees that behind the physical world lies a hidden reality, and we can interact and have a relationship with this hidden spiritual realm. Occult practitioners in every age and every country agree that all of creation is connected together and God is in all of creation--thus, all is God. These two definitions sum up occultism succinctly. The contemplative prayer movement conforms to these aspects of occultism to the letter.
It is for this very reason I have devoted an entire chapter of Faith Undone to contemplative spirituality. Mystical practices have entered the church through these ancient Christian mystics (ancient wisdom), and they have become the driving force of the emerging church. (from chapter 6, Faith Undone by Roger Oakland)
In conclusion I find it interestin to see ober at the Phoenix Preacher myself and my fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord are constantly accused of hate speech by Michael and Abanes.
Funny how that works isnt it.
They can use hate speech when speaking about us. Cor 13 totally ignored.
But yet we point out error or disagree with Rick Warren and instantly we hate Rick Warren or some other misguided soul.
I dont hate anyone.
So to the other camp disagreement=hate speech.
Well let it be so.
What good for us isnt good for them.
Michael also has commented that I dont let certain comments or posts fly.
He is correct.
My blog I choose what goes up.
Richard Abanes does the same thing but thats ok I guess since its Richard.
You see Michael I guess the rules only apply for those you choose at your discretion.
And the rules often change.
So in conclusion folks you will need to decide who is being immature and ignorant.
Michael has told my friend and brother in the Lord Bud Press to "bleep off" after Bud made a appeal to Richard Abanes to keep his word to Bud after Richard asked Bud for information on Ken Blanchard.
Yup that was real mature.
Does Michael sound like he uses's biblical logic and discernment?
Or does Michael use Oprah Winfrey Logic and Discernment?
As for my brothers and sisters in the Lord in discernement ministries I know the truth will always defend itself.
Tim Wirth
Here are some more interesting links on what Michael bought up in his article
Also some other links that give a background to contemplative proponents and its origins.
And this is also where I think this all could be going
All this is not really new to Christianity its just a lie repackaged.
Im done now

Friday, June 27, 2008

Todd Bentley is not of God folks

Im sorry for those of you out there who dont get this and are still calling this demonic nonsense a Christian revival.
This is not of God folks. At least not of the God I worship
Here is a very scary video-

Rick Warrens mentor C. Peter Wagner commissions Todd Bentley

Rick Warrens mentor C. Peter Wagner commissioned Todd Bentley for the Prophetic and Apostolic ministry. Video of this event is at the end of this article.

Rick Warren wrote his doctoral dissertation at Fuller Seminary on his church growth ideas. His mentor was C. Peter Wagner! Here is a copy of the FirstSearch Dissertations Abstracts listing:

Degree: D.MIN.
Year: 1993
Pages: 00413
Advisor: Mentor: C. PETER WAGNER
Source: DAI, 54, no. 03A, (1993): 0967
Abstract: One out of every three Americans alive today was born during the eighteen year period between 1947 and 1964. These 74,000,000 adults are the Baby Boom Generation. Today the youngest of the Baby Boomers is 24 and the oldest is 41 years old. In addition to being the largest generation of Americans, Baby Boomers are unique in their attitudes, values, and lifestyles. There are significant cultural differences between the Baby Boomer and the generations that both precede and follow them.
A People magazine survey found that only 11% of Baby Boomers regularly attend church. The basic argument of this dissertation is that most Baby Boomers will never be reached by traditional churches. We must establish new churches to reach this new generation of Americans. It will require new churches that understand the Baby Boom mindset and are intentionally designed to meet their needs, tastes, and interests.

During the past thirteen years, I have been researching, testing, and implementing principles and programs to reach Baby Boomers. I began the Saddleback Valley Community Church in January, 1980 in my home with my wife and the first family I met when I moved to the area. My target was to reach Baby Boomers. Today, the church averages about 6,000 in attendance. Over 50% of the members are Baby Boomers and nearly 70% were saved and baptized at the church.

Our church has sponsored 20 daughter churches since it began. In each of these new churches we have used the same strategy with good results. I believe the strategy we're developing at Saddleback is reproducible in other new church starts.

Accession No: AAG9320131
Database: Dissertations
Saddleback Church promotes and endorses C. Peter Wagners book "Your Spiritual Gifts can help your church grow" here on saddlebacks website as part of there SHAPE class 301

Warren did his D.MIN. in 1993 under Peter Wagner at Fuller NEW CHURCHES FOR A NEW GENERATION: CHURCH PLANTING TO REACH BABY BOOMERS. A CASE STUDY: THE SADDLEBACK VALLEY COMMUNITY CHURCH (California). In it he wrote “We must establish new churches to reach this new generation of Americans. It will require new churches that understand the Baby Boom mindset and are intentionally designed to meet their needs, tastes, and interests.”

Ministry Advantage at Fuller features articles from various “Christian leaders” Warren is listed among others like Ted Haggard, Jack Hayford, Bill Hybels, Peter Wagner, John Wimber etc. (

All this means Fuller sees him as being in agreement with these men and what they are teaching. Peter Wagner who taught at Fuller optimized his vision of church growth with executing a new Church government, ie. new apostles and prophets laying a new foundation for today (ICA).

Peter Wagner, is the Founder and President of the American Society For Church Growth (ASCG). Rick Warren is a member of the American Society For Church Growth (ASCG) which is located at Fuller Theological Seminary. Saddleback Valley Community Church.

Rick Warren, Founding Pastor (ASCG member at large) is found alongside many names which includes Global Harvest Ministries of C. Peter Wagner, Founder, President (the ASCG Founding President); The World Prayer Center C. Peter Wagner, Co-founder.

“Saddleback Community Church senior pastor Rick Warren is on Mission America's Facilitation Committee [ 1997].

A person does not become part of a board unless they are in agreement with the doctrines and philosophy of ministry of those who are part of the board.


Should all this surprise us?
Of course not.

Rick Warren himself states ""I see absolutely zero reason in separating my fellowship from anybody," he said.


And Warren has proved this time and time again with his associations with false teachers like Paul Yonggi Cho, Ken Copeland, Benny Hinn and the like.
Warren even spoke at the Azuza Street Centinnel. Warren continuely associates with new age sympathizers like Ken Blanchard and new ager Len Sweet.
False apostles and prophets like C Peter Wagner and his bunch.

More on this here

Here is the video of Rick Warrens mentor C. Peter Wagner commissioning false revival minister Todd Bentley.
People have asked me why I have linked Warren with Bentley.
Fair question its because they have in common a mentor who they both gleaned from in C. Peter Wagner.
How much poison does it take to kill my friends?
Here is the video

More to come Im sure

Tuesday, June 24, 2008

A comment from "When a church goes astray"

This comment was so well thought out and good I decided to post it as a article for all to see. Tim

It’s a depressing statistic. A majority of Western churches do not see a single addition through conversion in a typical year. So to try and turn things round many are rejecting traditional methods of evangelism and adopting a new ‘church growth’ model. Market research has convinced them that unbelievers stay away from church not because they reject Christ, but because they reject the church’s boring presentation of Christ. There’s no need to change the product – just the packaging – and the crowds will come flocking back.

The new packaging is all about replacement. A ‘stage’ with a moveable Perspex lectern replaces the old wooden pulpit. PowerPoint graphics replace the hymn books. A rock band replaces the organ. A casually dressed and jovial audience replaces the reverent congregation. A charming minister in a t-shirt and jeans replaces the suited ‘preacher’. Fun replaces holiness as the tone of the service. Loud music, side-splitting drama, multimedia presentations and a humorous ‘talk’ replace hymn singing and preaching. But, we’re confidently assured, the message remains the same.

Judging by numbers alone the new model has certainly proved a success. Prominent ‘church growth’ pastors like Robert Schuller (Crystal Cathedral, LA), Rick Warren (Saddleback Church, California), Bill Hybels (Willow Creek Church, Chicago) and Joel Osteen (Lakewood Church, Houston) attract thousands to their churches each Sunday. Though a majority of this ‘growth’ occurs by transfer rather than ‘conversion’, multitudes of other churches have adopted this model and have seen their congregations rocket numerically. Small wonder anyone questioning the movement is told, “Never criticise what God is blessing.”1 Truth never stood a chance against success.

How widespread is this new phenomenon? Consider this fact; over 400,000 pastors from 162 countries have been trained under Rick Warren’s church growth seminar material alone. (Warren calls his philosophy a “stealth movement flying beneath the radar that’s changing literally thousands of churches around the world ”). His book The Purpose Driven Church, which espouses this new philosophy, has sold over 1 million copies in 20 languages and is a standard textbook in hundreds of Bible Colleges. Yet despite the incredible popularity of Rick Warren and others like him, there are numerous problems with the church growth movement, starting with its history.

Problem 1 — The Origin and History of the Movement

The father of the church growth movement was the relatively unknown Donald McGavran. His best known student and successor at the Fuller School of World Mission in California was C. Peter Wagner, a founding member of the Lausanne Committee on World Evangelization. Wagner, a close friend of the late John Wimber (Vineyard), calls himself an apostle and is one of the world’s leading promoters of charismatic ‘signs and wonders’. From Fuller Seminary the church growth philosophy spread worldwide.

The first pastor to ‘make it big’ using modern church growth techniques was Robert Schuller. “An indisputed fact is that I am the founder, really, of the church-growth movement in this country...I advocated and launched what has become known as the marketing approach in Christianity.”2 How did he do it? “The secret of winning unchurched people into the church is really quite simple. Find out what would impress the nonchurched in your community [then give it to them].”2 Yet Schuller is a false teacher of huge proportions. An unashamed universalist, he rejects Jesus as the only way to heaven. He states that making people aware of their lost and sinful condition is the very worst thing a preacher can do. As for the new birth, to Schuller it simply means changing from a negative to a positive self-image.

Schuller’s landmark 1975 book Your Church Has Real Possibilities impressed Warren and Hybles who both visited Schuller to learn more. Hybels called his first meeting with Schuller a “divine encounter.”3 Kay Warren, Rick’s wife, said that Schuller had a “profound influence” on Rick, who was “captivated by his positive appeal to unbelievers.”4 Warren has since shared the platform at several of Schuller’s leadership conferences and an endorsement by Schuller appears at the beginning of Warren’s book The Purpose Driven Church: “I’m praying that every pastor will read this book...Rick Warren is the one all of us should listen to and learn from.” Today Warren, Hybels and Schuller all operate their churches on the same market-driven principles.

Problem 2 — The Business-Church Marriage

The second major problem with the church growth movement is its love-affair with the business world. Warren, who partners with marketing agencies like CMS in Covina, California, a company that helps giants like Isuzu Motors and Quaker Oats “grow their businesses,”5 follows the advice of secular business guru Peter Drucker, with whom he has engaged in a bi-annual consultation for 20 years. The focus of Drucker’s recent consulting has been to teach churches and charities to behave more like corporations and Warren has adapted many of his ideas.6 For instance, the Drucker Foundation has a ‘Self-Assessment Tool’ for business leaders. Warren has a ‘Health Assessment Tool’ for readers of his Purpose Driven Life. Anyone familiar with the ideas promoted in business books will easily spot their cloned ‘Christian’ versions all through Warren’s writings. Forbes Magazine publisher, Rich Karlgaard said of The Purpose Driven Church, “This is one of the greatest entrepreneurial books I’ve ever read, and if you merely substitute the word ‘business’ for ‘church’, it’s just a terrific guide that can be taken to a secular and business audience.”7 Bob Buford, founder of the Leadership Network in Dallas, Texas, has spent over 20 years integrating Drucker’s business ideas into churches. Another friend of Warren and Hybels, Buford calls himself “the legs for his [Drucker’s] brain.”8

Compare all of this to Paul’s pivotal message to the Ephesian elders in Acts 20. He mentions nothing about marketing, growing or adapting. Instead he warns them to teach the whole counsel of God, to beware of false teachers and to preach the gospel of faith and repentance - which introduces the third major problem in the church growth movement, the corruption of the gospel message.

Problem 3 — The Dumbing Down of the Message

Church growth advocate Lee Strobel recommends reaching ‘un-churched Harry and Mary’ by starting with their ‘felt needs’. (Rather than with righteousness, self-control and judgment to come as Paul did with Felix in Acts 24). Thus “If you discover that unchurched Harry suffers from a sagging can tell him how your own self-esteem has soared ever since you learned how much you matter to God.”9 Or if he’s a thrill seeker tell him there’s “nothing more exciting, more challenging and more adventure packed than living as a devoted follower of Jesus Christ.”10 In other words, discover what a sinner wants out of life and give it to him ‘in Jesus’. In a chapter in The Purpose Driven Church entitled ‘How Jesus Attracted Crowds’, Rick Warren states: “The most likely place to start is with the person’s felt needs...this was the approach Jesus used...A good salesman knows you always start with the customer’s needs, not the product.”11 In the previous chapter Warren claims, “Whenever Jesus encountered a person he’d begin with their hurts, needs, and interests.”12 Yet simply noting how the Lord dealt with Nicodemus, the rich young ruler, the Syrophenician woman and Levi, to name but a few, shows Warren’s selective exegesis to be very misleading.

Christians have always known that when witnessing to different types of individuals from diverse backgrounds it is useful to understand the presuppositions they bring to the table and adjust one’s approach accordingly. Clearly the Lord dealt with Nicodemus differently than with the woman at the well. Again, Paul addressed the Jews in Acts 13 differently to the Greeks on Mars Hill in Acts 17. So why all the fuss about Warren? Because Warren is not simply recommending that preachers bear their audience’s background in mind; he is advocating a total change in the technique, style and form of historical evangelical preaching, and he’ll even twist scripture to make his point. He favours a rendering of Col 4:5-6 which reads: “Be tactful to those who are not Christians...Talk to them agreeably and with a flavour of wit, and try to fit your answers to the needs of each one.”13 Yet the context of this passage is not about public preaching and the translation Warren favours is not in the least bit accurate to the original Greek text.

While no pastor would ever admit to watering down the gospel message, that is exactly what has resulted from preaching this kind of positive needs-orientated sermons that entertain and amuse. For instance, an evaluation of Hybels’ preaching reveals that in a typical month three out of four weekend messages are about God’s love. A mere 7% of messages mention God’s holiness. The truth of God’s wrath against mankind’s sin is virtually never heard.14 What isn’t preached is more revealing than what is.

Concluding their weak gospel presentations, many church growth preachers lead their audience in a model ‘sinner’s prayer’. Warren advises sinners that, “Real life begins by committing yourself completely to Jesus Christ. If you are not sure you have done this, all you need to do is receive and believe...bow your head and quietly whisper the prayer that will change your eternity: ‘Jesus I believe in you and I receive you.’ Go ahead. If you sincerely meant that prayer, congratulations! Welcome to the family of God.”15 No conviction of sin, no repentance, no forsaking of the sinner’s way, no counting the cost – just ‘accept and receive’ and the job’s done. Do these false teachers actually understand the true need of the sinner? Clearly not, for sinful man’s first and greatest need is repentance (not self-esteem as Schuller teaches). Man needs salvation from sin, deliverance from wrath and cleansing from guilt. The ‘consumer’ is actually a rebellious unclean sinner who, far from being ‘always right’, is always wrong. He doesn’t feel his need for the ‘product’ because he is spiritually dead. He only thinks he loves God and wants a relationship with Jesus, but actually he knows nothing about his true sinfulness and God’s righteousness.

The true gospel is not about making people feel better about themselves, but about making people realise they are lost, guilty and perishing. It does not attempt to bring people to Christ to meet their felt needs - rather it proclaims forgiveness and justification to meet their real need if they will repent and trust alone in Christ. A product that exposes sin, condemns pride and strips away self-righteousness can never be ‘marketed’. It is foolishness to the lost (1 Cor 1:18). Yet the new gospel is being presented as an attractive item to the sinner because it liberates his self esteem, fills his emptiness, gives him an exciting life, meets his needs and heals his hurts.

In the false gospel of the church growth movement the sinner is told that Christ died for him because he is so valuable to God. But this is a denial of grace. There is nothing in us to merit God’s love. Again, the idea that the sinner is friendly towards God but just turned off by the church is a denial of human depravity. Man is an enemy of God, alienated in his mind by wicked works (Col 1:21). Yet the false gospel says, “You may not believe in God, but God believes in you and you need to believe in yourself.” (The Bible says that Jesus did not believe in His hearers, John 2:24).

Problem 4 — Employing a Worldly Approach

The fourth problem with the ‘purpose driven church’ is its creation of a worldly ethos within the four walls of ‘the sanctuary’ in order to make the church more appealing to the world. Apparently since unchurched Harry has to dress smartly at the office all week, he insists on the casual look at weekends. To make him feel comfortable the saints must remove their respectful Sunday best and go for the casual or even the scruffy look. Then there’s the ‘music problem’. Unchurched Harry hates organs and choirs. A cappella singing makes him cringe. So, the music must be contemporary and loud. According to Warren, Saddleback exploded with growth after loud rock music made its entrance. People want to feel the music not just hear it.

Herding all the flock together three times a week for nothing more than hymn singing and Bible teaching doesn’t work anymore. Ministries, programmes and small groups must be introduced to meet people’s needs for counselling about poor self esteem, depression, infertility, singleness, weight loss, co-dependency, addictions and more.

According to Warren, providing the primary issues are in focus (Christ and His gospel) the secondary issues (the church model/methods) can be as varied as you like. What works (pragmatism) is all that matters. “I contend that when a church continues to use methods that no longer work, it is being unfaithful to Christ.”16 So just as Jesus ‘targeted’ the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Paul targeted the Gentiles and Peter targeted the Jews,17 at Saddleback Warren uses multiple venues to ‘target’ different markets. A jazz service for jazz lovers. A rock-n-roll service for rockers. Based on a mistranslation of Acts 5:42, Warren claims he’s following the apostles who provided different kinds of services in separate ‘courts’ of the temple.

Warren even claims that God enjoys rock music.18 “I reject the idea that music styles can be judged as either ‘good’ or ‘bad’ particular style of music is ‘sacred’...There is no such thing as ‘Christian music’, only Christian lyrics.”19 Yet just as clearly as a march tune fits a military scene, jazz fits a night club scene and rock fits a festival scene, so there is a certain kind of sound that suits a prayer meeting - and it’s not the rock, rap and jazz sound that the purpose driven church has borrowed from the world. Music that has a corrupt origin, employs sensual rhythms and is accompanied by a fleshly breathy style of singing, with singers who scoop and slide from one note to another, is utterly unsuitable for the spiritual praise of God (Eph 5:19).20


At the root of the entire purpose driven church paradigm is a fatal misconception. As John MacArthur points out: “The notion that church meetings should be used to tantalize or attract non-Christians is a relatively recent development. Nothing like it is found in scripture; in fact, the apostle Paul spoke of unbelievers entering the assembly as an exceptional event (1 Cor 14:23).”21 In fact, the church at Jerusalem was so holy and God-fearing that nobody dared to join it (Acts 5:11). The New Testament preaching of Paul “kept back nothing” (Acts 20:20) and involved reproving, rebuking and exhorting with patience and doctrine, bearing in mind a future time when people would no longer “endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers and they will turn their ears away from the truth” (2 Tim 4:2-4). That day has surely come.

The first few decades of the church growth movement have clearly shown the naiveté of those who thought that the true gospel could survive the introduction of a marketing philosophy which says the customer is king. Does style affect substance? It actually does much more. The purpose driven style has completely subverted the true gospel message. Exposition has surrendered to entertainment, preaching to performances, doctrine to drama and theology to theatrics – and the fallout has been catastrophic.

Doctrine has been trivialised and expositional preaching abandoned, leading to the introduction of multitudes of false converts and shallow members. A former Willow Creek counsellor admitted “Willow Creek is a mile wide and one-half inch deep.”22 Those who grieve to see their churches adopt this model have been marginalized. Separation from sin, worldliness, false doctrine and false churches has been deeply compromised. Speaking of his church members an unconcerned Warren states, “Are there unrepentant pagans mixed into Saddleback’s crowd of 10,000? Without a doubt...That’s okay. Jesus said...Don’t worry about the tares…”23 When George Barna surveyed Willow Creek’s weekend participants he found that while 91% stated that their highest value was having a deep personal relationship with God, of this same group 25% of singles, 38% of single parents and 41% of divorced individuals “admitted to having illicit sexual relationships in the last 6 months.”24

The answer to this movement is to abandon it altogether and return to biblical truth, biblical living, biblical preaching and biblical church principles. The idea that these new ‘purpose driven’ methods will restore the power of God in our midst is a red herring. Warren might just as well say that if only instead of being a preacher of righteousness (2 Pet 2:5) Noah had done some simple market research and built a ‘purpose driven ark’, more than eight people would have come aboard. When holy living, Spirit empowered preaching, loving unity and faithfulness to truth doesn’t seem to bring ‘results’, turning to the new methods advocated by Warren will only spell disaster. There will be results – but all of the wrong kind. A generation ago A.W. Tozer wisely said, “One of the most popular current errors, and the one out of which springs most of the noisy, blustering religious activity in evangelical circles, is the notion that as times change the church must change with them.” Since faithfulness to God’s word, as opposed to what evangelicalism calls success, will be the standard of reward at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor 2:4-5), obedience to the command to preach and teach, without trimming our sail to the wind of the world, is the most pressing need of the hour.

12:22 PM

Wendy Alec: Prophet of God?

From my friend and brother in the Lord Bud Press-
At this point, it is important to note the following:

1. Wendy Alec is recognized by herself and her peers as a prophet of God and, like Bentley, claims multiple visitations from "Jesus Christ."

2. Wendy Alec delivered a "prophetic word." Todd Bentley read it publicly.

3. Wendy Alec's "prophetic word" did not say that Jesus would visit the revival in spirit, but said twice that Jesus would visit "in person" and that "Jesus" would set His "foot upon the stage in divine, personal, one-to-one visitation."

4. No sooner than Todd Bentley read Wendy Alec's "prophetic word," he did an about-face and inserted his own protective disclaimer, stating in part that, "I'm not suggesting there's going to be a physical, flesh, Jesus Christ on the plat[form]."

5. It is odd that Todd Bentley would contradict Wendy Alec who, like Bentley, has claimed multiple visitations from "Jesus Christ," and is one of Bentley's loyal supporters ( ).

Certainly, Jesus Christ can do anything He desires; He is God Himself in human form, second Person of the Trinity, Lord and Savior. However, Jesus will not change His mind or contradict His word. And when anyone, whether male or female, claims to be a prophet of God, then claims an "in person" visitation from Jesus Christ, Christians would do well to remember what God's word says about the return of Jesus Christ, and trust in it over-and-above what man or woman teaches:

Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect (Matthew 24:23-24).

So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them (Matthew 24:26).

But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone (Matthew 24:36).

Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming (Matthew 24:42).

For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will (Matthew 24;44).

He said to them, It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority (Acts 1:7).

Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame (Revelation 16:15).

Even the very thought of prophesying a visitation from Jesus or His return is false, due to the fact that Jesus said, no one knows and it is not for you to know and that every eye will see Him.

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen (Revelation 1:7).

Jesus Christ's words are non-negotiable. It wasn't the Jesus of the Bible that spoke to Wendy Alec.

Read the rest of the article here

Monday, June 23, 2008


What Rick Warren and his followers disassociate and distance themselves from are the chaos the methods they teach cause in churches.
These are man-centered purpose driven methods that teach how to appease the flesh.

Keep in mind Rick Warrens root.

He went around and asked the unsaved what they wanted in a church.

And then they served it up.

Again-Warren sought the council of the unsaved (not scripture) what they wanted in a church.

The unsaved are fickle so the ante is always raised up a notch when they get bored.

That is why Rick Warren is contributing to a great deception that will add to the one world religion that is even now forming.

I dont mean to sound sensationalistic but the Bible predicted this time will come.
Rick Warren and purpose driven as well as is very cult like thats why churches are destroyed from the inside.
Willow Creek cant quite make up its mind what it wants to do even after finding out their methods failed.
Willow Creek now is headed toward the new spirituality which is another tangent just like the Emergent Church which is helping form this one world religion.
The same goes for Todd Benteley and his false revival.
Here are some comments from Lighthouse Trails blog that need to be heard.
Source: Editors at Lighthouse Trails

LTRP Note: These two comments we received today in our "Guestbook" say so much about what many believers are going through today in their churches.

Letter #1
At first I ignored things I saw on here, things people were linking. I decided to come again to this site after my husband and I just began to feel we weren't being fed in our church. We had experienced many changes from the church "catch phrase" including transform to every single ministry being revamped (except maybe the music ministry which had already been somewhat modern to begin with). Our church is very missional, and that seemed so right to me. I wanted my children to grow up with a heart for people around the world, the idea of going and making disciples seems good and I do not think it is wrong. However, I am now seeing that we are not really as much about pure missions as we are about following this plan and meeting the needs of "emergent youth."

When I really began to search things out, I found that most all of our books or curriculum for adults/youth/children is from Saddleback or WillowCreek. Our pastors are following the likes of Dallas Willard. I began looking at sermon notes and we have the lessons on the global PEACE plan and transformation. We've not been openly promoting contemplative prayer yet, but I believe it's because the pastors realize the church hasn't gotten far enough into it to swallow that one whole yet.

The hardest thing is now sitting in church when there is a nugget of truth, and realizing that it's not enough. I felt this Sunday while we were singing about Satan being vanquished and Jesus being King that I was in a room full of wonderful people who were just as I had been a few months earlier, a room full of people following our pastors right wherever Rick Warren or Dallas Willard prescribe. I cried, I prayed for their eyes to be opened. I prayed for my pastors. We have to decide if we will stay and try to educate, or if our children will be at risk if we do stay. We love those people, you know. We really do. They have been our family for several years, and we're not church hoppers, we're loyal. Well, first off we have to be loyal to the King, and so now we wait on the Lord to see what He would have us to do. My heart is broken.


Letter #2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. This is in reference to the post below (see Guestbook - entry from 6/22/08) - about worshipping God and not the Bible. :)

I am so interested in this site. I went to a church for 4 years where they were starting to infiltrate with The Purpose Drivin Church methods - we went to Saddleback on 3 different occasions to conferences. I went to Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa...and I was quite used to that 'non-denominational' way . . . and I still am.

As time wore on, my Dad and I were getting quite skeptical of this Purpose Driven idea....we believed that as Christians, our purpose is to spread the Gospel - not growing your church into a mega-chapel where money flows, and what not. So, yes, as Christians, we do have a purpose - and our purpose should be getting out the good news of Jesus Christ - not what Rick Warren or any of his followers are exuding.

As we looked back, upon our practical excommunication from our old church, we see that it was run very much like that of Jim Jones and the Jonestown /Guyana Tragedy....from the late 70s. It was quite bizarre - the similarities.

We are in a Calvary Chapel now....and we've been there for 10 years. We have never been steered into building the church and numbers, and such....our church has grown because people are hungry for the gospel.

God bless you all for proclaiming the truths and for proclaiming Jesus Christ! See you in Heaven! :)

Southern California

This article or excerpt was posted on June 23, 2008@ 6:22 pm .

Category: * New Evangelicalism

Friday, June 20, 2008

What Revival is not

Check this U Tube video out to see what Revival is not.
This 6:36 video compares the spiritual manifestationsof other religions and the new false revivals taking place inside the church.
There are many false voices in Christianity today from Todd Bently, to Rick Warren and his PEACE plan. And others such as Richard Abanes who would lead people astray. The wisest suggestion that I can give you is to get back into the scriptures. Test everything to see if it is true. And make sure you are turning your children, family and friends toward God's Word.
There and there alone will you find the truth.


Fools for Christ- or just Fools by Mike Oppenheimer

On June 9th 1994 - John Hinkle on TBN predicted evil would be ripped from the world, everyone was excited. It will be the most cataclysmic event since the resurrection. It would be the day the son of man is revealed. Referencing Isa.25:6-9 for the literal coming of Christ. "I was awaken and the lord spoke to me in the most awesome voice I heard it outside and inside and as I sat up he said on Thursday June the 9th I will rip the evil out of this world."

14 years later, almost to the day, Todd Bentley reads a prophecy for their Sunday night meeting (8th June) revival meeting from Wendy Alec of GOD TV that Jesus is going to personally

Jesus apparently said this to Wendy Alec video

“The Lord just spoke to me and said "This IS what will happen tomorrow night!"
The King and the King's anonting falls tomorrow night. The 8th of June, the anointing of the King of Glory falls. Jesus said, "I am coming in PERSON." The King is coming in person.
I sense so strongly there will be a personal divine visitation of the Lamb of God, the Lord Jesus Christ to the revival tomorrow night.
He will come in the clouds, in His chariot, surrounded by a great angelic host because the great honoring of the Lamb of God, The King of Glory is coming to visit Lakeland, to visit the revival, to visit the outpouring.
The devil trembles with that knowledge. For tomorrow the King of Glory sets foot upon the stage in divine, personal, one-to-one visitation.” -underline mine-

Todd reads this prophecy to the audience, which is not unlike Ruth Heflins prophesy to Benny Hinn before she died. ( “He is going to appear physically in one of our crusades in the next few months” ( March 29th, 2000) Hinn also said: I'm prophesying this Jesus Christ the Son of God is about to appear physically in some Church's and some meetings and to many of his people.” Maybe Bentley's meeting would be the fulfillment of this because he certainly missed showing up at Hinn’s meeting.

Bentley explains about ‘the prophetic’ and justifies the prophecy:

“...though I'm open to a... the Lord can appear... I mean I've seen the Lord. I am not suggesting there is going to be a physical, flesh, Jesus Christ on the platform. I hope you understand, we're talking about in atmosphere, we're talking about in spiritual experience, we're talking about in impartation. Now, now, Roy, if tonight's and last night's worship is any indication that something is changing in the realm of the glory,... something about the King of Glory,oh God, we want to set a place up in the throne of our hearts more than anything else for you to come and visit... Come, on. Who wants to have the King come in His Glory? C'mon...

Bentley may not be suggesting his coming physically but Alec certainly did: ‘I am coming in person to Lakeland. I am coming in the clouds, surrounded by chariots and a host of angels. I will set foot on stage in a divine personal one on one visitation to the revival.’

When Jesus comes in the clouds he is coming back to earth and that is the end of the world system as we know it. But Bentleys take on this is not the biblical one.

Bentley: ‘I am not suggesting there is going to be a physical, flesh, Jesus Christ on the platform... we're talking about in atmosphere, we're talking about in spiritual experience, we're talking about in impartation.’

Bentley changes her meaning of the statement because now this Jesus is obligate to show up to others instead of to him separately as he claims he so often has done.

Wendy Alec qualified how Jesus is to come in person- not in spirit, which would be different than any other night. “I am coming in person." The King is coming in person. “a personal divine visitation of the Lamb of God,. ”He will come in the clouds, in His chariot, surrounded by a great angelic host” “tomorrow the King of Glory sets foot upon the stage in divine, personal, one-to-one visitation.”

Bentley has an interesting reinterpretation, but why can’t Jesus come physically- Patricia King said that he did to Bentley before. In fact, she said that Jesus appeared in his human body just as he walked with on earth before he resurrected (Patricia King video with Bentley approx. 1 minute into her spiel)

Patricia King “During that time he had this visitation of the Lord where he actually saw the lord come out of the heaven and appear to him, just like he appeared on the earth, y’know sometimes when you have visions of Jesus like you see in the Bible, you see him in all the brilliance and heavenly glory, and in his glorified state, but when Jesus was in the earth he was a man, in fact, he was so normal people did not recognize him as the Son of God….. and Todd was explaining to me that when Jesus came to him this time he came as he would have look as he would in the earth just like a man…”

Putting aside this not being the reason they did not recognize him as the Son of God, King then proceeds to offer the audience for Jesus to come to them, just as he did to Todd. This is promoting contact with apparitions for this Jesus is NOT the true Jesus of the Bible. They want us to believe that Jesus reversed himself in nature- became unglorified, became mortal again just to visit Todd.
Bentley tells the story that Jesus who came as the Son of man; wasn't the King of glory; wasn't in His resurrection glory” (transcript-

So then how did Todd recognize him? By this spirit telling him he was Jesus?!?

Here is what the Bible says about all this- 1Timothy 3:16-4:1 Jesus was “Received up in glory.” Jesus is called “the Lord of glory” (James 2:1.) When he appeared to Paul He was in his glory (who states emphatically in 1 Cor.15:8 that he was the last to see him because he was chosen to be appointed.)

Since he is forever the high priest, his glory is forever also for it accompanies his human nature that is unable to die again. the Son who has been perfected forever (Hebrews 7:28) His glory is forever because his dominion is forever. Revelation 1:18 “I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.”

For those who make an excuse that he did not come in his body in Bentley’s meeting but instead spiritually, invisibly in attendance; are they saying – it was not Jesus with them each night? Then why say he will finally show up, with his anointing too? So where was Jesus that night? Was he detained at another meeting? Did his Jesus forget his appointment? Did he go to the wrong address? Where is the Jesus that was to show up. Because it certainly did not happen the way it was prophesied.

The Bible tells us that Jesus is in his body forever and is presently sitting at the right hand of God which is located in heaven. So it becomes ludicrous fro anyone to prophesy such an event. This isn’t Jesus that will appear in glory but a deceiving spirit called Jesus, for they are prophesying what the Bible describes as the second coming of Christ in a different way

This is what it will be like when he comes:

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him.”

Colossians 3:4-5 makes it clear “When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory”

The Second Coming and glory has a different meaning to Latter Rain adherents. Everyone needs to understand what Bentley and others mean is not what the Bible means. Some have not used their Bible for so long that it is officially dormant. The Bible tells us Revelation 1:7 “He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him.”

The real authentic Jesus said in Mt.24:23: "Then if anyone says to YOU, look here is the Christ! or 'There! Do NOT believe them." Why? Because this is not the biblical Second Coming of Christ where every eye will see Jesus return literally in the clouds at the end of the age, theirs is ’spiritual’ Second Coming of Christ.” That is why this is “another Jesus” being presented to the church.

People would rather believe the false advertisements of these mendacious storytellers of the supernatural,

like the dumb down liberals that disbelieve in absolute truth and accept everything that the media tells them as the truth, they believe their stories.

These revivalists demoralize doctrine in the church, having her cast off the anchor to the word to float aimlessly on the moving tide of experience.

Why are we, the church, allowing the church to be led by false teachers? Why?

Is the anointing tangible and transferable by Mike Oppenheimer

Is the anointing tangible and transferable; can we impart it?

Hebrews 6:1-3 “Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”

The laying on of hands has become an enlarged subject because of its use in the church today. The Bible considers it part of the ABC’s of doctrine along with repentance and baptism.

In the Old Testament It was a symbolic act accompanying a prayer for a blessing, at other times it was accompanied the word of prophecy being spoken or to affirm one into ministry. There is no Biblical basis for associating laying on of hands with a transmission of a mantle or transferring the anointing from one person to another.

It is found in the book of Acts as the practice to commission someone into ministry. The laying on of hands has become a Pentecostal tradition that is removed from its original meaning in Scripture. Touching people on the forehead or chest so they fall is considered a sign of the power of the Holy Spirit. But none of this is found in the Acts of the apostles or taught in the Epistles that instructed the church.

Paul writes--1Timothy 4:14: “Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.” In other words, God spoke what he was doing in Timothy and they approved of him into ministry even though he was young. What was this gift? The previous verse tells us V.13-Till I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.”

Paul laying hands on Timothy was not with the intention to pass on a gift or power or result in the abnormal behaviour as we see today ‘It affirmed the gift they saw working in him which resulted in his appointment to be a pastor. Timothy came under attack as a young pastor and Paul had to reaffirm to him in 2 Timothy 1:6-7 “Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.” In other words he should not cave under pressure from others because of his youth, he was approved by God and through the apostles.

What does this have to do with what we see today? Next to nothing. What we see are people lined up as the anointer comes to lay hands on people in line or sporadically wanders through the audience touching them to pass on what he has.

Yet Paul counseled Timothy in 1 Timothy 5:21-22 :“Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people's sins; keep yourself pure.” Timothy was to lay hands on people as approval for their call into ministry, but he must make sure.

A power called the “anointing” is being transferred by the touch of one person to another, however, the message of the Christian faith was to be spread by teaching from one to another. One is subjective and the other is objective.

Paul instructs timothy ‘And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.’ (2 Timothy 2.2) True spiritual growth comes through the testing of our faith, by our consistent reading, understanding and applying the Word in our lives. NOT by an impartation or a experience at a special meeting. Those who promise a quick transformation from a touch or impartation, are not delivering the truth that is taught in the Bible.

Many today are taught to get an impartation from the anointed preacher. There is no need when Scripture states we all have the same standing before God; all believers have the same Holy Spirit and Christ as our mediator. We can all receive from Jesus, who is the one we should all be seeking. Going to a certain person or meeting to seek an anointing by impartation is unbiblical. No other person is to be our mediator to receive the Holy Spirit. Whenever men become mediators, Christ’s teachings diminish and men’s teachings increase. We are then giving them, not the Lord control over our lives.

Laying hands on the sick to pray is not the same as imparting the spirit and watching them buckle.

A ‘transferable anointing’ is not seen nor practiced anywhere in Scripture. We also find that the Apostles did not rush around laying hands on people to impart an experience of ‘fire’ or power. They did not chant words over and over and expect a immediate response. The impartations done today that come through certain men are not the true anointing, who is the Spirit of God. Only God can give the Spirit; Jesus is the baptizer of the Holy Spirit, not man. Man cannot control God- there is no teaching on how to obtain or release the anointing to another.

In 1 Jn.2 it tells us that we , as believers have the anointing and He is our teacher, we do not need a new anointing to receive another teacher. But that is what one gets if they reject the Holy Spirit as He resides in us to teach us what Jesus said.

Acts 8 is an interesting passage in which Philip preaches in Samaria and many people are saved, but Peter has to come from Jerusalem to lay hands on the people so that they might receive the Holy Spirit. When Simon the Sorcerer sees something spiritual happened and he offered to pay for the ability to pass on the Spirit to others. Acts 8:19-20 "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit."

One wonders what would be the difference of today’s signs and wonders preachers that claim this ability. Peter said ‘Your money perish with you because you thought the gift of God could be purchased with money. … Repent therefore of this your wickedness and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are poisoned with bitterness and bound by iniquity.’ (Acts 8.22-23).

Corinthians reads ‘Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God who has also sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.’ We have been sealed with the Holy Spirit living inside us. 1 John 2.27: ‘These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true and is not a lie and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.’ The anointing who is the Holy Spirit is in us, it is He who guides us into the truth so we can glorify the Lord Jesus (John 1613-15). We certainly are not glorifying the Lord when we go to men to get the Holy Spirit, it is a lack of understanding and a lack of faith.

Todd Bentley: Miraculous Healings?

Question: If the Florida Outpouring/Lakeland revival is producing miraculous healings, why doesn't Todd Bentley go and lay hands on the sick and dying at the above medical facilities?

Answer: Todd Bentley doesn't have the Biblical gift of healing (1 Corinthians 12:8-9).

Read the rest of the article here

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